Pray

[Chosen]

Jeremiah 29:11-13
11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

12 'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.

13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.



Psalm 27:8
8 When You said, "Seek My face," my heart said to You,
"Your face, O LORD, I shall seek."


Psalm 40:1-3
1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And He set my feet upon a rock making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the LORD.

[Virginia]

welcome back, Chosen :)

Specifically today for Terri Schiavo ..her parents....the judges...Bush....and her husband.

[Chosen]

Feel free to offer your thoughts, prayers, praises, and concerns here. If your post is sensitive in nature, realize that this is a public forum and that some people are less than mature. If you have something that needs to be shared with someone, feel free to send a private message to myself or any of the other Christians who frequent here.

An e.mail address you can use to contact me: friendlylight@gmail.com

I am a born-again Bible-believing Christian who believes in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. If you are a Christian who wants to share your faith, feel free to say hello here.

Um... I think that's it! :)

[fuzzi pariah]

Yo Bro! Good to see you!

I was thinking we needed a 'Pray' thread here on the new IH...and there you were! Thanks!

I agree with Virginia...pray for those involved in the Terri Shiavo case, those in authority who need to know what God's will is, and especially for her family, including her husband.

And pray for more people to accept Christ...

[Brianna]

Feel free to offer your thoughts, prayers, praises, and concerns here. If your post is sensitive in nature, realize that this is a public forum and that some people are less than mature. If you have something that needs to be shared with someone, feel free to send a private message to myself or any of the other Christians who frequent here.

An e.mail address you can use to contact me: friendlylight@gmail.com

I am a born-again Bible-believing Christian who believes in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. If you are a Christian who wants to share your faith, feel free to say hello here.

Um... I think that's it! :)

Thanks for creating this thread Chosen. :)

Please lift my sister Sandy up in prayer. She is in the army and has been deployed to Afghanistan. Thanks :)

[Catch]

pray that the two term limit is removed so that President Bush can serve additional terms beyond a second. we need to restore strong family values in this nation and continue to fight the war on evildoers. only President Bush is up to that task for the next decades. God bless President Bush and the republican party. :)

[MabelJ]

Jeremiah 29:11-13
11 'For I know the plans that I have for you,' declares the LORD, 'plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope.

12 'Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you.

13 'You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.



Psalm 27:8
8 When You said, "Seek My face," my heart said to You,
"Your face, O LORD, I shall seek."


Psalm 40:1-3
1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay,
And He set my feet upon a rock making my footsteps firm.
3 He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God;
Many will see and fear
And will trust in the LORD.




is that from bible?

[Kestrel]

is that from bible?

Yes.

[Virginia]

pray that the two term limit is removed so that President Bush can serve additional terms beyond a second. we need to restore strong family values in this nation and continue to fight the war on evildoers. only President Bush is up to that task for the next decades. God bless President Bush and the republican party. :)

Indeed... God Bless President Bush and the United States of America. :)

Nix on the the term limit removal!

[Virginia]

I would ask for prayer for my Dad. He went in hosp Wed night for chest pains. They put three stints in and did three angioplasti's. Chest pain is still coming back though and he's in ICU.

While we're at it ..I need to know when its time to just take the step and fly out there. Dad says not to but that inner voice has been telling me to go see him for weeks now.

[Becky]

I will be praying :)

[fuzzi pariah]

I would ask for prayer for my Dad. He went in hosp Wed night for chest pains. They put three stints in and did three angioplasti's. Chest pain is still coming back though and he's in ICU.

While we're at it ..I need to know when its time to just take the step and fly out there. Dad says not to but that inner voice has been telling me to go see him for weeks now.
So, go already! Don't wait.

I'll pray for him as well.

[fuzzi pariah]

Brianna, I just added Sandy to my prayer list.

:)

As far as President GW Bush and those in power, I would not necessarily pray for them to stay in power, but while they are there to be used for good, according to God's will. May they not cave in to special interests but do that which is pleasing to the Lord.

[Brianna]

Brianna, I just added Sandy to my prayer list.

:)



Thanks fuzzi!

[clean_slate]

pray that the two term limit is removed so that President Bush can serve additional terms beyond a second. we need to restore strong family values in this nation and continue to fight the war on evildoers. only President Bush is up to that task for the next decades. God bless President Bush and the republican party. :)

Pray that catch never gets his wishes.

[Synner]

Oh goodie, another cut-n-paste prayer thread. Let me get my Book of the Dead...

[fuzzi pariah]

Oh goodie, another cut-n-paste prayer thread. Let me get my Book of the Dead...
What's the problem now, Michael?

Why are you being so intolerant that you won't let people talk about their faith without trying to disrupt it?

[Synner]

What's the problem now, Michael?

Why are you being so intolerant that you won't let people talk about their faith without trying to disrupt it?My 'problem' is that I don't like people that have nothing more to say than a cut-n-paste. If you want to preach, go to TOL. While you're here, without the protection of their nazi mods, you'll just have to deal with the fact that you can't just post whatever the hell you want without also allowing everyone else the same right. Feel free to report me, of course. This is a 'prayer' thread, and I intend to pray in it.

[fuzzi pariah]

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:1-4)

All men, not some...it is not God's will that any should go to Hell...but that all should repent and be saved...

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

[Synner]

Hymn To Osiris

"Homage to thee, Osiris, Lord of eternity, King of the Gods, whose names are manifold, whose forms are holy, thou being of hidden form in the temples, whose Ka is holy. Thou art the governor of Tattu (Busiris), and also the mighty one in Sekhem (Letopolis). Thou art the Lord to whom praises are ascribed in the nome of Ati, thou art the Prince of divine food in Anu. Thou art the Lord who is commemorated in Maati, the Hidden Soul, the Lord of Qerrt (Elephantine), the Ruler supreme in White Wall (Memphis). Thou art the Soul of Ra, his own body, and hast thy place of rest in Henensu (Herakleopolis). Thou art the beneficent one, and art praised in Nart. Thou makest thy soul to be raised up. Thou art the Lord of the Great House in Khemenu (Hermopolis). Thou art the mighty one of victories in Shas-hetep, the Lord of eternity, the Governor of Abydos. The path of his throne is in Ta-tcheser (a part of Abydos). Thy name is established in the mouths of men. Thou art the substance of Two Lands (Egypt). Thou art Tem, the feeder of Kau (Doubles), the Governor of the Companies of the gods. Thou art the beneficent Spirit among the spirits. The god of the Celestial Ocean (Nu) draweth from thee his waters. Thou sendest forth the north wind at eventide, and breath from thy nostrils to the satisfaction of thy heart. Thy heart reneweth its youth, thou producest the.... The stars in the celestial heights are obedient unto thee, and the great doors of the sky open themselves before thee. Thou art he to whom praises are ascribed in the southern heaven, and thanks are given for thee in the northern heaven. The imperishable stars are under thy supervision, and the stars which never set are thy thrones. Offerings appear before thee at the decree of Keb. The Companies of the Gods praise thee, and the gods of the Tuat (Other World) smell the earth in paying homage to thee. The uttermost parts of the earth bow before thee, and the limits of the skies entreat thee with supplications when they see thee. The holy ones are overcome before thee, and all Egypt offereth thanksgiving unto thee when it meeteth Thy Majesty. Thou art a shining Spirit-Body, the governor of Spirit-Bodies; permanent is thy rank, established is thy rule. Thou art the well-doing Sekhem (Power) of the Company of the Gods, gracious is thy face, and beloved by him that seeth it. Thy fear is set in all the lands by reason of thy perfect love, and they cry out to thy name making it the first of names, and all people make offerings to thee. Thou art the lord who art commemorated in heaven and upon earth. Many are the cries which are made to thee at the Uak festival, and with one heart and voice Egypt raiseth cries of joy to thee.

"Thou art the Great Chief, the first among thy brethren, the Prince of the Company of the Gods, the stablisher of Right and Truth throughout the World, the Son who was set on the great throne of his father Keb. Thou art the beloved of thy mother Nut, the mighty one of valour, who overthrew the Sebau-fiend. Thou didst stand up and smite thine enemy, and set thy fear in thine adversary. Thou dost bring the boundaries of the mountains. Thy heart is fixed, thy legs are set firm. Thou art the heir of Keb and of the sovereignty of the Two Lands (Egypt). He (Keb) hath seen his splendours, he hath decreed for him the guidance of the world by thy hand as long as times endure. Thou hast made this earth with thy hand, and the waters, and the winds, and the vegetation, and all the cattle, and all the feathered fowl, and all the fish, and all the creeping things, and all the wild animals therof. The desert is the lawful possession of the son of Nut. The Two Lands (Egypt) are content to crown thee upon the throne of thy father, like Ra.

"Thou rollest up into the horizon, thou hast set light over the darkness, thou sendest forth air from thy plumes, and thou floodest the Two Lands like the Disk at daybreak. Thy crown penetrateth the height of heaven, thou art the companion of the stars, and the guide of every god. Thou art beneficent in decree and speech, the favoured one of the Great Company of the Gods, and the beloved of the Little Company of the Gods.

His sister [Isis] hath protected him, and hath repulsed the fiends, and turned aside calamities (of evil). She uttered the spell with the magical power of her mouth. Her tongue was perfect, and it never halted at a word. Beneficent in command and word was Isis, the woman of magical spells, the advocate of her brother. She sought him untiringly, she wandered round and round about this earth in sorrow, and she alighted not without finding him. She made light with her feathers, she created air with her wings, and she uttered the death wail for her brother. She raised up the inactive members of whose heart was still, she drew from him his essence, she made an heir, she reared the child in loneliness, and the place where he was not known, and he grew in strength and stature, and his hand was mighty in the House of Keb. The Company of the Gods rejoiced, rejoiced, at the coming of Horus, the son of Osiris, whose heart was firm, the triumphant, the son of Isis, the heir of Osiris."

The Judges In Anu

Hail, Thoth, who madest to be true the word of Osiris against his enemies, make thou the word of the scribe Nebseni to be true against his enemies, even as thou didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, in the presence of the Tchatcha Chiefs who are with Ra and Osiris in Anu, on the night of the "things of the night," and the night of battle, and of the fettering of the Sebau fiends, and the day of the destruction of the enemies of Neb-er-tcher.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs in Anu are Tem, Shu, Tefnut, [Osiris and Thoth]. Now the "fettering of the Sebau fiends" signifieth the destruction of the Smaiu fiends of Set, when he wrought iniquity a second time.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris Ani to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Tetu, on the night of setting up the Tet in Tetu.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Tetu are Osiris, Isis, Nephthys, and Horus the avenger of his father. Now the "setting up of the Tet in Tetu" signifieth [the raising up of] the shoulder of Horus, the Governor of Sekhem. They are round about Osiris in the band [and] the bandages.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris Ani to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Sekhem, on the night of the "things of the night" in Sekhem.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Sekhem are Heru-khenti-en-ariti and Thoth who is with the Tchatcha Chiefs of Nerutef. Now the night of the "things of the night festival" signifieth the dawn on the sarcophagus of Osiris.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris the scribe Ani to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in the double town Pe-Tep, on the night of setting up the "Senti" of Horus, and of establishing him in the inheritance of the possessions of his father Osiris.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Pe-Tep are Horus, Isis, Kesta (Mesta) and Hapi. Now the "setting up of the 'Senti' of Horus" hath reference to the words which Set spake to his followers, saying "Set up the Senti."

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris the scribe Ani to be true, in peace, against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in the Lands of the Rekhti (Taiu-Rekhti), in the night when Isis lay down, and kept watch to make lamentation for her brother Osiris.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Taiu-Rekhti are Isis, Horus, Kesta (Mesta) [Anpu and Thoth].

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris true against his enemies, make thou the word of Osiris the scribe Ani, whose word is truth, in peace, to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Abtu, on the night of the god Haker, when the dead are separated, and the spirits are judged, and when the procession taketh place in Teni.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Abtu are Osiris, Isis, and Up-uat.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris, the scribe and assessor of the sacred offerings which are made to all the gods, Ani, to be true against his enemies, with the Tchatcha Chiefs who examine the dead on the night of making the inspection of those who are to be annihilated.

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are present at the examination of the dead are Thoth, Osiris, Anpu and Asten (read Astes). Now the inspection (or, counting) of those who are to be annihilated signifieth the shutting up of things from the souls of the sons of revolt.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris the scribe Ani to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are present at the digging up of the earth [and mixing it] with their blood, and of making the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies.

As concerning the Tchatcha Chiefs who are present at the digging up of the earth in Tetu: When the Smaiu fiends of Set came [there], having transformed themselves into animals, these Tchatcha Chiefs slew them in the presence of the gods who were there, and they took their blood, and carried it to them. These things were permitted at the examination [of the wicked] by those [gods] who dwelt in Tetu.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris to be true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris [the scribe] Ani to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Nerutef on the night of the "Hidden of Forms."

Now the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Nerutef are Ra, Osiris, Shu and Bebi.

Now, the night of the "Hidden of Forms" referreth to the placing on the sarcophagus [of Osiris] the arm, the heel, and the thigh of Osiris Un-Nefer.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris, whose word is truth, to be true against his enemies, with the great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Rasta, on the night when Anpu lay with his arms on the things by Osiris, and when the word of Horus was make to be true against his enemies.

The great Tchatcha Chiefs who are in Rasta are Horus, Osiris, and Isis. The heart of Osiris is happy, the heart of Horus is glad, and the two halves of Egypt (Aterti) are well satisfied thereat.

Hail, Thoth, who didst make the word of Osiris true against his enemies, make thou the word of the Osiris the scribe Ani, the assessor of the holy offerings made to all the gods, to be true against his enemies, with the Ten great Tchatcha Chiefs who are with Ra, and with Osiris, and with every god, and with every goddess, in the presence of the god Nebertcher. He hath destroyed his enemies, and he hath destroyed every evil thing which appertained to him.

If this Chapter be recited for, or over, the deceased, he shall come forth by day, purified after death, according to the desire of his heart. Now if this Chapter be recited over him, he shall progress over the earth, and he shall escape from every fire, and none of the evil things which appertain to him shall ever be round about him; never, a million times over, shall this be.

[fuzzi pariah]

My 'problem' is that I don't like people that have nothing more to say than a cut-n-paste.
For most of us here, God's word is not just a 'cut-n-paste'. It says more than any human could possible communicate.


If you want to preach, go to TOL. While you're here, without the protection of their nazi mods, you'll just have to deal with the fact that you can't just post whatever the hell you want without also allowing everyone else the same right. Feel free to report me, of course. This is a 'prayer' thread, and I intend to pray in it.
Suit yourself. You might get more than you bargained for, though...

...I look forward to the day of your salvation.

:D®

[Synner]

For most of us here, God's word is not just a 'cut-n-paste'. It says more than any human could possible communicate.


Suit yourself. You might get more than you bargained for, though...

...I look forward to the day of your salvation.

:D®Thank you...I believe I will 'suit myself'.

[fuzzi pariah]

Brethren (and 'sistern'), pray for those who are used by the enemy, who need to know Christ as Saviour. Even someone like Sadaam Hussein or Michael Shiavo need our prayers. "But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.
But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit." (Jude 1:10-19)

[Synner]

Address To The Gods Of The Tuat

(From the Papyrus of Nu, Brit. Mus. No. 10477, Sheet 24)

THE FOLLOWING ARE THE WORDS WHICH THE HEART OF TRUTH THAT IS SINLESS SHALL SAY WHEN HE COMETH WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH INTO THE HALL OF MAATI; THEY SHALL BE SAID WHEN HE COMETH TO THE GODS WHO DWELL IN THE TUAT; AND THEY ARE THE WORDS WHICH ARE [TO BE SAID] AFTER [HE COMETH FORTH FROM] THE HALL OF MAATI.

Nu, the steward of the keeper of the seal, whose word is truth, saith:- Homage to you, O ye gods who dwell in your Hall of Maati! I know you, I know your names. Let me not fall under your knives of slaughter, and bring ye not forward my wickedness to this god in whose following ye are. Let not evil hap come upon me through you. Speak ye the truth concerning me in the presence of Neb-er-tcher, for I have done what is right and just in Ta-Mera. I have not cursed the god, and my evil hap did not come upon him that was king in his day.

Homage to you, O ye who dwell in your Hall of Maati, who have nothing false in your bodies, who live upon Truth, who feed yourselves upon Truth in the presence of Horus who dwelleth in his Disk, deliver ye me from Beba, who feedeth upon the livers of the great ones on the day of the Great Judgment. Grant ye that I may come before you, for I have not committed sin, I have done no act of deceit, I have done no evil thing, and I have not borne [false] witness; therefore let nothing [evil] be done to me. I have lived upon truth, I have fed upon truth, I have performed the ordinances of men, and the things which gratify the gods. I have propitiated the god by doing his will, I have given bread to the hungry man, and water to him that was athirst, and apparel to the naked man, and a ferry-boat to him that had no boat. I have made propitiatory offerings and given cakes to the gods, and the "things which appear at the word" to the Spirits. Deliver then ye me, protect then ye me, and make ye no report against me in the presence [of the Great God]. I am pure in respect of my mouth, and I am clean in respect of my hands, therefore let it be said unto me by those who shall behold me: "Come in peace, Come in peace." For I have heard that great word which the Sahu spake to the CAT, in the House of Hapt-ra. I have borne witness to Her-f-ha-f, and he hath given a decision [concerning me]. I have seen the things over which the Persea tree which is in Rasta, spreadeth its branches. I have made petitions to the gods, [and I] know the things [which appertain to] their bodies. I have come, travelling a long road, to bear righteous testimony, and to set the Balance upon its supports within Aukert.

Hail, thou who art exalted high upon thy standard, thou Lord of the Atef Crown, who dost make thy name to be "Lord of the Winds," deliver thou me from thy divine Envoys who punish and afflict according to [thy] decrees, and who make calamities to arise, and whose faces are without coverings, for I have done what is right and true for the Lord of Truth. I am pure. My breast is purified by libations, and my hinder parts are made clean with the things which make clean, and my inner parts have been dipped in the Lake of Truth. There is no single member of mine which lacketh truth. I have washed myself clean in the Lake of the South. I have rested myself in the City of the North, which is in Sekhet Sanhemu (the Field of the Grasshoppers), where the mariners of Ra wash themselves clean at the second hour of the night, and at the third hour of the day. The hearts of the gods are gratified when they have passed over it, whether it be by night or whether it be by day, and they say unto me, "Let thyself advance."

They say unto me,
"Who art thou?"
And they say unto me,
"What is thy name?"
[And I reply],
"Sept-kheri-nehait-ammi-beq-f" is my name.
Then they say unto me,
"Advance straightway on the city which is to the North of the Olive Tree. What dost thou see there?"

The Leg and the Thigh. What dost thou say unto them? Let me see rejoicings in these lands of the Fenkhu. What do they give unto thee? A flame of fire and a sceptre-amulet [made] of crystal. What dost thou do with them? I bury them on the furrow of M'naat, as things for the night. What dost thou find on the furrow of Maat? A sceptre of flint, the name of which is "Giver of winds." What now didst thou do with the flame of fire and the sceptre-amulet [made] of crystal, after thou didst bury them? I said a spell over them, and I dug them up. I quenched the flame of fire and I broke the sceptre-amulet, and I made a lake of water.

[Then shall the Two and forty gods say unto me]:
"Come now, pass in over the threshold of this door of the Hall of Maati, for thou hast knowledge of us." "We will not allow thee to enter in over us," say the bars of this door, "unless thou tellest us our names."
[And I reply],
"Tekh-bu-maa" is your name.
The right lintel of this door saith:
"I will not allow thee to pass over me unless thou tellest me my name."
[And I reply], "Henku-en-fat-maat" is thy name.
The left lintel of this door saith:
"I will not allow thee to pass over me unless thou tellest me my name."
[And I reply],
"Henku-en-arp" is thy name.
The ground of this door saith:
"I will not allow thee to pass over me unless thou tellest me my name."
[And I reply],
"Aua-en-Keb" is thy name.
And the bolt of this door saith:
"I will not open the door to thee unless thou tellest me my name."
[And I reply],
"Saah-en-mut-f" is thy name.
The socket of the fastening of this door saith:
"I will not open unto thee unless thou tellest my name."
[And I reply],
"The Living Eye of Sebek, the Lord of Bakhau," is thy name.
The Doorkeeper of this door saith:
"I will not open to thee, and I will not let thee enter by me unless thou tellest my name."
[And I reply],
"Elbow of the god Shu who placeth himself to protect Osiris" is thy name.
The posts of this door say:
"We will not let thee pass in by us unless thou tellest our name."
[And I reply],
"Children of the uraei-goddesses" is your name.
The Doorkeeper of this door saith:
"I will not open to thee, and I will not let thee enter in by me unless thou tellest my name.
[And I reply],
"Ox of Keb" is thy name.
[And they reply],
"Thou knowest us, pass in therefore by us."
The ground of this Hall of Maati saith:
"I will not let thee tread upon me [unless thou tellest me my name], for I am silent. I am holy because I know the names of two feet wherewith thou wouldst walk upon me. Declare, then, them to me."
[And I reply], "Besu-Ahu" is the name of my right foot, and "Unpet-ent-Het-Heru" is the name of my left foot.
[The ground replieth]:
"Thou knowest us, enter in therefore over us."
The Doorkeeper of this Hall of Maati saith:
"I will not announce thee unless thou tellest my name."
[And I reply],
"Discerner of hearts, searcher of bellies" is thy name.
[The Doorkeeper saith]:
"Thou shalt be announced."
[He saith]:
"Who is the god who dwelleth in his hour? Speak it"
[And I reply],
"Au-taui."
[He saith]:
"Explain who he is."
[And I reply],
"Au-taui" is Thoth. "Come now," saith Thoth, "for what purpose hast thou come?"
[And I reply]:
"I have come, and have journeyed hither that my name may be announced [to the god]."
[Thoth saith]:
"In what condition art thou?"
[And I reply],
"I, even I, am purified from evil defects, and I am wholly free from the curses of those who live in their days, and I am not one of their number."
[Thoth saith]:
"Therefore shall [thy name] be announced to the god."
[Thoth saith]:
"Tell me, who is he whose heaven is of fire, whose walls are living serpents, and whose ground is a stream of water? Who is he?"
[And I reply],
"He is Osiris."
[Thoth saith]:
"Advance now, [thy name] shall be announced to him. Thy cakes shall come from the Utchat (Eye of Horus or Ra), thy ale shall come from the Utchat, and the offerings which shall appear to thee at the word upon earth [shall proceed] from the Utchat." This is what Osiris hath decreed for the steward of the overseer of the seal, Nu, whose word is truth."

[love_lost]

While we're at it ..I need to know when its time to just take the step and fly out there. Dad says not to but that inner voice has been telling me to go see him for weeks now.fuzzi's right. I've been through a similar circumstance, and 'now' isn't soon enough in this kind of situation. If you have any doubts, or even intuitions, act on them.

If things blow over, then the worst regret you'll likely have is the possibility you were being a bit melodramatic.

And I can tell you in all honesty, that's far better than the regrets you may have to face, if you wait until your loved one stops telling you not to worry... there are no words to express how mercilessly those demons can haunt you.

[Brianna]

I would ask for prayer for my Dad. He went in hosp Wed night for chest pains. They put three stints in and did three angioplasti's. Chest pain is still coming back though and he's in ICU.

While we're at it ..I need to know when its time to just take the step and fly out there. Dad says not to but that inner voice has been telling me to go see him for weeks now.

Yes, I agree with both fuzzi and love_lost. Go see your Dad. Your in my prayers.

[Virginia]

My 'problem' is that I don't like people that have nothing more to say than a cut-n-paste. If you want to preach, go to TOL. While you're here, without the protection of their nazi mods, you'll just have to deal with the fact that you can't just post whatever the hell you want without also allowing everyone else the same right. Feel free to report me, of course. This is a 'prayer' thread, and I intend to pray in it.

So what you're saying is you're trolling Fuzzi and/or Christians? This is at the point that I question the real reason you react so vehemently when Christians post simply about their faith.

[Virginia]

Address To The Gods Of The Tuat

Michael...are you praying or trolling?

[Virginia]

For most of us here, God's word is not just a 'cut-n-paste'. It says more than any human could possible communicate.


Suit yourself. You might get more than you bargained for, though...

...I look forward to the day of your salvation.

:D®

Yeah...I sense it's coming too. *dance n twirl*

And Michael, my friend, I say that with genuine joy for you.

[Virginia]

fuzzi's right. I've been through a similar circumstance, and 'now' isn't soon enough in this kind of situation. If you have any doubts, or even intuitions, act on them.

If things blow over, then the worst regret you'll likely have is the possibility you were being a bit melodramatic.

And I can tell you in all honesty, that's far better than the regrets you may have to face, if you wait until your loved one stops telling you not to worry... there are no words to express how mercilessly those demons can haunt you.
For just some guy you're pretty great

[Malsi]

I would ask for prayer for my Dad. He went in hosp Wed night for chest pains. They put three stints in and did three angioplasti's. Chest pain is still coming back though and he's in ICU.

While we're at it ..I need to know when its time to just take the step and fly out there. Dad says not to but that inner voice has been telling me to go see him for weeks now.
Do you have anyone there with him now? Not to sound trite, but chest pains, angioplasty, stints are all almost 'routine' these days so although it is new to him, more than likely he'll be feeling tremendously better immediately. Get on the horn to the doctors and get their opinions on how he is doing.

In the meantime, I'll warm up the rosary beeds...

Be well

[Virginia]

Do you have anyone there with him now? Not to sound trite, but chest pains, angioplasty, stints are all almost 'routine' these days so although it is new to him, more than likely he'll be feeling tremendously better immediately. Get on the horn to the doctors and get their opinions on how he is doing.

In the meantime, I'll warm up the rosary beeds...

Be well
He's had a number of major heart surgeries in the past 20 yrs, as well as stints and angioplasti. I finally was able to talk to him again this afternoon. H He's on nitro and morphine. Its gotta be bad formy Dad to allow morphine...and yes, I mean "allow." :) They did a MRI on Fri but it was inconslusive so they're doing another tomorrow morning. Dad thinks there's another narrowed passage in there that they missed on Wed.

I think ya'll are right though. Time to get a ticket to LA and just go.

And Malsi...thank you :)

[Malsi]

Time to get a ticket to LA and just go.

And Malsi...thank you :)
And I just re-read your post. all those procedures x3 and the history - going to LA sounds like just what you should be doing. travel safe and I'll lift a prayer.

[love_lost]

For just some guy you're pretty greatWell, I stumble my way towards adequacy, on occasion. But it’s purely accidental.

[Virginia]

Well, I stumble my way towards adequacy, on occasion. But it’s purely accidental.
May you trip again soon :)

[Droog]

My 'problem' is that I don't like people that have nothing more to say than a cut-n-paste. If you want to preach, go to TOL. While you're here, without the protection of their nazi mods, you'll just have to deal with the fact that you can't just post whatever the hell you want without also allowing everyone else the same right. Feel free to report me, of course. This is a 'prayer' thread, and I intend to pray in it.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Synner is doing. This is a public forum first of all. Secondly, are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. to be excluded? These religions all support the notion that one can pray to their God/Gods. The Egyptian religion may be defunct, but from Synner's point of view, Judaism and therefore Christianity is a derivative of it.

In any event, I see no point to questioning Synner's motives. It's not relevant. If a muslim posted something from the Qu'ran, would his or her motives be questioned? You could. But what if they told you that they wanted to express the beauty that they hold of their religion hoping to win some? Would that be wrong of them to do? Would you say, "start your own thread, this is for Christian's only."

Go ahead, Mikey. It was on topic and apropos. There's no one group who can have a monopoly over this forum or any particular thread.

[Chosen]

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Synner is doing. This is a public forum first of all. Secondly, are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. to be excluded? These religions all support the notion that one can pray to their God/Gods. The Egyptian religion may be defunct, but from Synner's point of view, Judaism and therefore Christianity is a derivative of it.

In any event, I see no point to questioning Synner's motives. It's not relevant. If a muslim posted something from the Qu'ran, would his or her motives be questioned? You could. But what if they told you that they wanted to express the beauty that they hold of their religion hoping to win some? Would that be wrong of them to do? Would you say, "start your own thread, this is for Christian's only."

Go ahead, Mikey. It was on topic and apropos. There's no one group who can have a monopoly over this forum or any particular thread.

Your argument is moot. From previous conversations with Synner, he does not advocate the beliefs he posts. He is merely posting them as a rebuff to Christianity.

While oddly annoying, it is easily ignorable and as such, even Synner is welcome here despite his attempts at derailing the conversation... :)

[Droog]

Your argument is moot. From previous conversations with Synner, he does not advocate the beliefs he posts. He is merely posting them as a rebuff to Christianity.

While oddly annoying, it is easily ignorable and as such, even Synner is welcome here despite his attempts at derailing the conversation... :)

Advocating a belief becomes a criteria, how again?

[Synner]

Your argument is moot. From previous conversations with Synner, he does not advocate the beliefs he posts. He is merely posting them as a rebuff to Christianity.

While oddly annoying, it is easily ignorable and as such, even Synner is welcome here despite his attempts at derailing the conversation... :)If I want to "rebuff" christianity, I'll do it in my own words, which I often do. I'm merely cut-n-pasting beliefs, just like you.

[Chosen]

Advocating a belief becomes a criteria, how again?

I didn't say it's a criteria, I just said your argument is moot. :add09:

[Droog]

I didn't say it's a criteria, I just said your argument is moot. :add09:

Alright, my turn:


Proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.

[Chosen]

If I want to "rebuff" christianity, I'll do it in my own words, which I often do. I'm merely cut-n-pasting beliefs, just like you.

To what effect? Is it for any other reason than 'just because'?

[Chosen]

Alright, my turn:


Proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.

Now that is apropos!

[Chosen]

(not to mention you're quoting a verse entirely out of context, bud... Read the whole chapter first next time, or at least the 1 preceeding verse...)

[Droog]

(not to mention you're quoting a verse entirely out of context, bud... Read the whole chapter first next time, or at least the 1 preceeding verse...)

Awh, come now. You're not going to nickle and dime me on this one are you? I mean, Romans 5:13 is always taken out of context to use as a proof text that innocents go to heaven. Ephesians 2:8&9 is never quoted with verse 10. Rarely do I see James 2 quoted from. No fair. I cry foul.

En garde you scriptural charlatan.

[Chosen]

Awh, come now. You're not going to nickle and dime me on this one are you? I mean, Romans 5:13 is always taken out of context to use as a proof text that innocents go to heaven. Ephesians 2:8&9 is never quoted with verse 10. Rarely do I see James 2 quoted from. No fair. I cry foul.

En garde you scriptural charlatan.

Ah- the "let's shift the focus off of me instead of really listening to what's being said" approach...

[Droog]

Ah- the "let's shift the focus off of me instead of really listening to what's being said" approach...

Hmmph. I learned from the masters. And your Kung Fu... it's no good.

[Synner]

To what effect? Is it for any other reason than 'just because'?Because this is a cut-n-paste thread, and I find those cut-n-pastes interesting.

[Chosen]

Hmmph. I learned from the masters. And your Kung Fu... it's no good.

It is not a fight I seek.

[Synner]

(not to mention you're quoting a verse entirely out of context, bud... Read the whole chapter first next time, or at least the 1 preceeding verse...)First you say I have no reason (and therefore no context) to post those other then derailing your thread, then you claim there is some sort of context I'm supposed to be adhereing to. Which is it, bud?

[Droog]

It is not a fight I seek.

Then the Shaolin will suffer certain defeat at the hand of Iron Palm! Hai!

[Chosen]

First you say I have no reason (and therefore no context) to post those other then derailing your thread, then you claim there is some sort of context I'm supposed to be adhereing to. Which is it, bud?

If you were to post the verse in context, you might have been talking about something like guaranteeing a loan for another... And you might have posted the first and last parts of the sentence...

i.e.:

Proverbs 6:1-3
1 My son, if you have put up security for your neighbor,

if you have struck hands in pledge for another,

2 if you have been trapped by what you said,

ensnared by the words of your mouth,

3 then do this, my son, to free yourself,

since you have fallen into your neighbor's hands:

Go and humble yourself;

press your plea with your neighbor!

[Chosen]

Then the Shaolin will suffer certain defeat at the hand of Iron Palm! Hai!

You have yet to see me fight. If I am to be defeated it is not because I could not win.

[Chosen]

Droog, Synner,

I am but a child. I do not wish to continue this childish banter. Not here, not now. Call it as you will, but it comes down to the fact that I was hoping to start a thread for people to post their heartfelt prayer requests. For some reason it appears as though you are unable to connect to the fact that there are real people with real lives who serve a real God. If you have questions about God that is one thing, but to purposely make an issue out of non-issues is akin to chewing on your fingers. (I'm not sure how, but it seems to work... :) ) If you think that I didn't expect a level of ignorance (if the shoe fits, wear it), you're mistaken... I am just saying here that I would rather talk about something with substance other than ankle-biting.

[Kestrel]

"The Abbot tried to console Pai Mai. Only to find Pai Mai, was...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...inconsolable."



Be the first to name the movie and I'll give up a greenie!

[Jehovah]

"The Abbot tried to console Pai Mai. Only to find Pai Mai, was...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...inconsolable."



Be the first to name the movie and I'll give up a greenie!Kill Bill V2 -- Please give the Greenie to Spelling_Nazi. I owe her one.

[Kestrel]

Kill Bill V2 -- Please give the Greenie to Spelling_Nazi. I owe her one.

Done! :D

[Synner]

If you were to post the verse in context, you might have been talking about something like guaranteeing a loan for another... And you might have posted the first and last parts of the sentence...I'll decide in what context to post my cut-n-pastes, thanks anyway.

[Synner]

Droog, Synner,

I am but a child. I do not wish to continue this childish banter. Not here, not now. Call it as you will, but it comes down to the fact that I was hoping to start a thread for people to post their heartfelt prayer requests. For some reason it appears as though you are unable to connect to the fact that there are real people with real lives who serve a real God. If you have questions about God that is one thing, but to purposely make an issue out of non-issues is akin to chewing on your fingers. (I'm not sure how, but it seems to work... :) ) If you think that I didn't expect a level of ignorance (if the shoe fits, wear it), you're mistaken... I am just saying here that I would rather talk about something with substance other than ankle-biting.Then why didn't you name the thread "Taking Prayer Requests", or something like that? For that matter...you set the tone by cut-n-pasting your first posts in the thread. Don't blame me for walking through the door that you left open.

[Chosen]

Then why didn't you name the thread "Taking Prayer Requests", or something like that? For that matter...you set the tone by cut-n-pasting your first posts in the thread. Don't blame me for walking through the door that you left open.

As I said, you and others like you are welcome to post here (not that it would matter if you weren't, in your mind).

[Kestrel]

I do not wish to continue this childish banter.


As I said, you and others like you are welcome to post here (not that it would matter if you weren't, in your mind).

C'mon.

Let it go.

[Droog]

Droog, Synner,

I am but a child. I do not wish to continue this childish banter. Not here, not now. Call it as you will, but it comes down to the fact that I was hoping to start a thread for people to post their heartfelt prayer requests. For some reason it appears as though you are unable to connect to the fact that there are real people with real lives who serve a real God. If you have questions about God that is one thing, but to purposely make an issue out of non-issues is akin to chewing on your fingers. (I'm not sure how, but it seems to work... :) ) If you think that I didn't expect a level of ignorance (if the shoe fits, wear it), you're mistaken... I am just saying here that I would rather talk about something with substance other than ankle-biting.


Our Father, who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

Give Chosen this day a sense of humour,
and forgive him his dryness
as we forgive him his anal-retentiveness.

And lead us not into the path of unrequited punchlines
but deliver us from those that take things the wrong way.

For thine is the kingdom,
and the power,
and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.

[Spelling Nazi]

Kill Bill V2 -- Please give the Greenie to Spelling_Nazi. I owe her one.

Done!
I saw this thread but never bothered to poke my head in. Then I get this cryptic greenie from Kestrel. Now I see what you’re doing in here!

Of course, from the post Kestrel flagged on your behalf means that you, Jehovah, have now endorsed the I <Heart> Droog thread with positive reputation. Not sure if that’s what you wanted...but there is a movie reference in that thread too. All-in-all I have to say that Kes is really on the ball today!

[love_lost]

I saw this thread but never bothered to poke my head in. Then I get this cryptic greenie from Kestrel. Now I see what you’re doing in here!

Of course, from the post Kestrel flagged on your behalf means that you, Jehovah, have now endorsed the I <Heart> Droog thread with positive reputation. Not sure if that’s what you wanted...but there is a movie reference in that thread too. All-in-all I have to say that Kes is really on the ball today!NO!

No, no no no no!

<Staggers around smashing random stuff, in a blind, insensate rage.>

Neyt, nein, non, yok, ne...

That's not what was supposed to happen! You guys weren't supposed to take it seriously! IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.....

<Pauses, breathes deeply.>

Arrrrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhh!
(By the way- why are there no emoticons expressing blind murderous rage?)

[Spelling Nazi]

NO!

No, no no no no!

<Staggers around smashing random stuff, in a blind, insensate rage.>

Neyt, nein, non, yok, ne...

That's not what was supposed to happen! You guys weren't supposed to take it seriously! IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.....

<Pauses, breathes deeply.>

Arrrrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhh!
(By the way- why are there no emoticons expressing blind murderous rage?)
Judging by the list one is probably meant to channel blind, murderous rage into sexual energy. Or opt for the lackluster :mad: .

[Kestrel]

All-in-all I have to say that Kes is really on the ball today!
Today?

Too-day?!?!? :mad_11: Hmph.

so....'euro trash', how did the orgy with pispas go?
:add26:

;)

[Droog]

NO!

No, no no no no!

<Staggers around smashing random stuff, in a blind, insensate rage.>

Neyt, nein, non, yok, ne...

That's not what was supposed to happen! You guys weren't supposed to take it seriously! IT WAS A JOKE!!!!!!!! FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.....

<Pauses, breathes deeply.>

Arrrrrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhh!
(By the way- why are there no emoticons expressing blind murderous rage?)

<Fasts for the day then goes to pray in closet this time.>

[Jehovah]

I saw this thread but never bothered to poke my head in. Then I get this cryptic greenie from Kestrel. Now I see what you’re doing in here!

Of course, from the post Kestrel flagged on your behalf means that you, Jehovah, have now endorsed the I <Heart> Droog thread with positive reputation. Not sure if that’s what you wanted...but there is a movie reference in that thread too. All-in-all I have to say that Kes is really on the ball today!I have no problem endorsing the I <Heart> Droog thread. In fact, upon reflection, I'd rather endorse that thread than any 10 of the others.

[Synner]

I saw this thread but never bothered to poke my head in. Then I get this cryptic greenie from Kestrel. Now I see what you’re doing in here!I find it amusing that "Phantom" gave you a red. I mean, this is a dipshit that spends all day in the "Greenie orgie" thread wondering if he's in first place in terms of "greenie count". In fact, I don't ever recall seeing a post of his outside that stupid thread. Let's make sure we all hook him up with a red dot to help him out.

[Synner]

I find it amusing that "Phantom" gave you a red. I mean, this is a dipshit that spends all day in the "Greenie orgie" thread wondering if he's in first place in terms of "greenie count". In fact, I don't ever recall seeing a post of his outside that stupid thread. Let's make sure we all hook him up with a red dot to help him out.lol...I sent the dickhead a red and my only comment was a :)

Here's what I got in return:
Fuck you, you cum gargling BASTARD!!

[Droog]

I find it amusing that "Phantom" gave you a red. I mean, this is a dipshit that spends all day in the "Greenie orgie" thread wondering if he's in first place in terms of "greenie count". In fact, I don't ever recall seeing a post of his outside that stupid thread. Let's make sure we all hook him up with a red dot to help him out.

But if he reds in return, given his greenie count, it'll lower my stock.

Oh wait, almost forgot... (Chosen gets rather pissy when you can't stay on topic.)


Proverbs 22:10 Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.

[Spelling Nazi]

lol...I sent the dickhead a red and my only comment was a :)

Here's what I got in return:
Ha, ha, ha! It’s OK, really. I was initially stunned to get a red since it’s fairly rare (although not unheard of) for me to receive one. But after I read the comment I just burst out laughing. “Euro trash”!

I should warn you though, Phantom holds grudges for a long time. My last post in there was quite some time ago, when I had my Bush and Hitler “What the Heil?” avatar up and received this reply.
http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39954&postcount=2356

I always liked the propaganda avatars. When I ran out I had to start getting artistic. It’s always nice to know that the work is being noticed – even if it’s hated. After all, now I can claim I’m a misunderstood artist!

I don’t understand how anyone can still be mad at my current avatar. Girl Guide cookies are the best cookies that money can buy! Must be the uniform association game I’m playing with that picture…sullying the good name of the Guides.

What’s really fun is that ANTI-CHRIST has stolen that old Bush/Hitler avatar and is running around with it. I just wish that guy could spell correctly. If he keeps up his current rate of errors, it’s going to reflect badly on me.

Anyway, thanks for sticking up for me. :) That was really cool.

[Synner]

Ha, ha, ha! It’s OK, really. I was initially stunned to get a red since it’s fairly rare (although not unheard of) for me to receive one. But after I read the comment I just burst out laughing. “Euro trash”!

I should warn you though, Phantom holds grudges for a long time. My last post in there was quite some time ago, when I had my Bush and Hitler “What the Heil?” avatar up and received this reply.
http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showpost.php?p=39954&postcount=2356

I always liked the propaganda avatars. When I ran out I had to start getting artistic. It’s always nice to know that the work is being noticed – even if it’s hated. After all, now I can claim I’m a misunderstood artist!

I don’t understand how anyone can still be mad at my current avatar. Girl Guide cookies are the best cookies that money can buy! Must be the uniform association game I’m playing with that picture…sullying the good name of the Guides.

What’s really fun is that ANTI-CHRIST has stolen that old Bush/Hitler avatar and is running around with it. I just wish that guy could spell correctly. If he keeps up his current rate of errors, it’s going to reflect badly on me.

Anyway, thanks for sticking up for me. :) That was really cool.
My pleasure. I just find it amusing that I can poke a stick at some idiot simply by giving him a "red dot" with nothing but a smiley face and watch him go ape shit over it. Poor guy...I wonder if he lost his "lead"...lol. I don't give out reputation often, because I think those guys have made the system completely worthless. But I'll be sure to give that idiot a red every time the system lets me. ;)

The best part is that he thinks he's "getting me back" by giving me a red. HA HA.

[Jehovah]

My pleasure. I just find it amusing that I can poke a stick at some idiot simply by giving him a "red dot" with nothing but a smiley face and watch him go ape shit over it. Poor guy...I wonder if he lost his "lead"...lol. I don't give out reputation often, because I think those guys have made the system completely worthless. But I'll be sure to give that idiot a red every time the system lets me. ;)

The best part is that he thinks he's "getting me back" by giving me a red. HA HA.For the first time I've gotten interested in this reputation game.

I gave the dooshbag* a reddie too, with a pleasant "Hi!". Just as an experiment on human nature.















* Yes, Ali, I know: Douchebag

[Droog]

Verses people. Verses!

[Jehovah]

Verses people. Verses!Sorry...

Matthew 14:2 - And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works doo shew forth themselves in him.

[Droog]

Sorry...

Matthew 14:2 - And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works doo shew forth themselves in him.

:happy_01: Expertly done. :happy_07:

[Synner]

Verses people. Verses!"And Jack said unto God, why doest thou forsake me, o' Lord my God? My greenies show that I am well loved by all in the land! And the Lord replied, Because the true measure of man is not his greenies, but what he posts in earning his greenies."

-Book of Michael 11:27

We also have surviving fragments of text that suggest that chapter actually continues on to say "And don't think I don't see what you're doing behind the scenes with your reddies, you jackass". But scholars are divided on the context of those fragments.

Now I'm no scholar, but I believe that passage is relevant.

[Spelling Nazi]

"And Jack said unto God, why doest thou forsake me, o' Lord my God? My greenies show that I am well loved by all in the land! And the Lord replied, Because the true measure of man is not his greenies, but what he posts in earning his greenies."

-Book of Michael 11:27

I was wondering when you were going to next quote from the Book of Michael. Very appropriate thread to do so.

[Synner]

I was wondering when you were going to next quote from the Book of Michael. Very appropriate thread to do so.I try to publish new translations as soon as they are available. But alas, most of my scholars are foolishly looking through the texts for a Prophecy that fortells the next American Idol winner. :rolleyes:

[Spelling Nazi]

Sorry...

Matthew 14:2 - And said unto his servants, This is John the Baptist; he is risen from the dead; and therefore mighty works doo shew forth themselves in him.
Holy crap! Ha, ha, ha! I had to double check a KJV Bible to make sure you weren’t making that up. The comeback is almost too perfect.
:add09:

[Claire Aiden]

I try to publish new translations as soon as they are available. But alas, most of my scholars are foolishly looking through the texts for a Prophecy that fortells the next American Idol winner. :rolleyes:


Not to make light of the thread or the subject...but

YOUBETCHA! :D

Claire

[Synner]

Not to make light of the thread or the subject...but

YOUBETCHA! :D

ClaireDamn you. I used to hate that show...now I'm hooked.

[Spelling Nazi]

I try to publish new translations as soon as they are available. But alas, most of my scholars are foolishly looking through the texts for a Prophecy that fortells the next American Idol winner. :rolleyes:
Actually, I'm probably headed to a prolonged stay in academia so I guess I may as well give it a shot.

Attention class! To discern the hidden prophesy written by the author I have consulted outside posts to establish the cryptography. They were quite conveniently found in the "Bible Codes" thread. What follows is based on those instructions (in case the reader is wondering where the concept of a page break comes from).

First, I break the sentences out into separate pages. I like to be sensible, so I break pages at the end of each sentence. I break the lines on commas to get the "grids".

Now I have:

"And Jack said unto God,
why doest thou forsake me,
o' Lord my God?

My greenies show that I am well loved by all in the land!

And the Lord replied,
Because the true measure of man is not his greenies,
but what he posts in earning his greenies."
-Book of Michael 11:27


Page 1
I am allowed to choose my starting position. I would like to use the second line, so on this page I am using the number 2. I still have to pick a starting word, and since we are "subjects" of God, let's use the subject in the second line: Thou.

2 letters of 2 spacing in "thou" means we find the letters: h, u.


Page 2
By the context, obviously the author is focusing on greenies. But the middle page means we extract the middle letter. Middle letter of greenies: n

Page 3
It's the last page therefore I use the last word in the sentence. But this is the first time I reference an object, so use the first letter. g

HUNG.

The Book of Michael predicts that William Hung will win American Idol. There is probably a better pairing and better result if we had more of the text. However, given this extremely small sample set I feel the above illustrates a level of prophetic accuracy that at least rivals today's theology books (which includes Moby Dick).

[Spelling Nazi]

For the first time I've gotten interested in this reputation game.

I gave the dooshbag* a reddie too, with a pleasant "Hi!". Just as an experiment on human nature.

* Yes, Ali, I know: Douchebag
Argh! I’m trying so hard to resist the urge to reddie him, but you just HAD to mention an interesting experiment into human psychology, didn’t you? AAAAAHHHHH, that’s not fair! You’re Jehovah, not Satan. Stop tempting me!


(The urge to use this smilie as a comment is almost overwhelming me.) :add23:

[Jehovah]

Argh! I’m trying so hard to resist the urge to reddie him, but you just HAD to mention an interesting experiment into human psychology, didn’t you? AAAAAHHHHH, that’s not fair! You’re Jehovah, not Satan. Stop tempting me!What, there's a difference between the two??

Look, chicka, Lucy dint do nuttin' I dint wan done in d'frist place.


(The urge to use this smilie as a comment is almost overwhelming me.) :add23:Well, that you've successfully resisted temptation is blatantly evident.

(See? I can play black is white, white is black just like the theists do!)

[Claire Aiden]

Argh! I’m trying so hard to resist the urge to reddie him, but you just HAD to mention an interesting experiment into human psychology, didn’t you? AAAAAHHHHH, that’s not fair! You’re Jehovah, not Satan. Stop tempting me!


(The urge to use this smilie as a comment is almost overwhelming me.) :add23:

SN, :D, Jehovah must get greenies for this clever and astute evaluation. I see we have similar senses of humar SN....I am not surprised. (I try to spell properly btw :D)

And I already sent Synner my prediction for winner of AI which can, of course, be taken to the bank. :)

Claire

[Jehovah]

HUNG.

The Book of Michael predicts that William Hung will win American Idol. There is probably a better pairing and better result if we had more of the text. However, given this extremely small sample set I feel the above illustrates a level of prophetic accuracy that at least rivals today's theology books (which includes Moby Dick).You misinterpret. The proper interpretation includes the Likening of Esses, which you've forgotten. Thus:

William's Hung Like Moby's Dick.

[Virginia]

Please continue to lift my Dad up. He's still in ICU. MRI showed some irregularties but they found nothing when they did the second angiogram yesterday. We flew my brother there yesterday for a week stay. Then each of us daughters will fly out there for one week intervals.

[Alli]

Please continue to lift my Dad up. He's still in ICU. MRI showed some irregularties but they found nothing when they did the second angiogram yesterday. We flew my brother there yesterday for a week stay. Then each of us daughters will fly out there for one week intervals.
I'm sorry to hear of this virginia. You wonderful family has suffered greatly in this past year. :(


We need to pray for Droog!!

[Virginia]

I'm sorry to hear of this virginia. You wonderful family has suffered greatly in this past year. :(


We need to pray for Droog!!

I have been...I have been..and will and will! My heart aches so much right now I feel like I can't breath.

George...know that there are literally hundreds of people lifting you up right now.

[fuzzi pariah]

Please continue to lift my Dad up. He's still in ICU. MRI showed some irregularties but they found nothing when they did the second angiogram yesterday. We flew my brother there yesterday for a week stay. Then each of us daughters will fly out there for one week intervals.
Droog's been in my prayers, but your Dad made the list this week.

Keep us informed, k?

[Dora]

We need to pray for Droog!!

I have been - every day for awhile - morning & nite & in between.....

[Dora]

Please continue to lift my Dad up. He's still in ICU. MRI showed some irregularties but they found nothing when they did the second angiogram yesterday. We flew my brother there yesterday for a week stay. Then each of us daughters will fly out there for one week intervals.

Ginny's dad - check

He's on my list now, Ginny. I'm a real daddy's girl - my dad is 75 & went to play golf with my son & hubby Saturday. I don't know what I'd do without him! But you do have sibs to help, and that's good. I'm an only - of 2 onlies - & I have an only - so I'm basically screwed when it comes to help.

[fuzzi pariah]

Please pray for Michael Shiavo and others who were so adamant that Terri die.

They need to realize what they have done, and repent. I would not that anyone face God's final judgment with that on their life record.

:(

[lotimer]

Please pray for Michael Shiavo and others who were so adamant that Terri die.

They need to realize what they have done, and repent. I would not that anyone face God's final judgment with that on their life record.

:(


"For a country that claims to be the most religious in the world people sure do fear death alot." - Someone who was a legal caretaker for Terri Schiavo for 20 months on CNN.

[Virginia]

quick update coz I want to head for home.

Dad was released from hosp today. He has 2 out of the 4 arteries to the heart open. They're put him on new meds to see how he does. They will also check for reflux though my Dad doesnt think thats it. IH Doc clued us in on reflux! If the meds dont work then we're looking at his fifth heart surgery..or is that sixth?

Dog is still alive. We put it off for one more day as one of mykids asked for more time to adjust to the decision.

And Droog...please pray for Droog! Specifically for peace and clarity for his next steps.

[Virginia]

"For a country that claims to be the most religious in the world people sure do fear death alot." - Someone who was a legal caretaker for Terri Schiavo for 20 months on CNN.

We dont fear death. We value life.

[Synner]

Please pray for Michael Shiavo and others who were so adamant that Terri die.

They need to realize what they have done, and repent. I would not that anyone face God's final judgment with that on their life record.

:(Ah yes...they didn't live up to your moral standards. Too bad. It's about time people started to stand up and say that Christians don't have a stranglehold on morality.

And in typical Christian fashion, you snidely insert your pathetic little straw man arugment. Their position wasn't that she should die, it was that she was already dead. It's amazing how often you have to twist around the views of others simply so you can sleep better at night.

[Dora]

quick update coz I want to head for home.

Dad was released from hosp today. He has 2 out of his 4 arteries, to the heart are open. They're put him on new meds to see how he does. They will also check for reflux though my Dad doesnt think thats it. IH Doc clued us in on reflux! If the meds dont work then we're looking at his fifth heart surgery..or is that sixth?

Dog is still alive. We put it off for one more day as one of mykids asked for more time to adjust to the decision.

And Droog...please pray for Droog! Specifically for peace and clarity for his next steps.

Poor Ginny! Makes you want to just stand in the middle of your yard & scream over & over again, doesn't it? My day has sucked big time, too - but at least my family is well. And, unfortunately, the insane Jack Russell terrorist dog is too! And George (sigh) what can we say about George - I just hope that tight band around my chest that keeps me from breathing well will go away soon. <here's where my sad face emoticon would be - IF I HAD ONE!>

[Droog]

Ah yes...they didn't live up to your moral standards. Too bad. It's about time people started to stand up and say that Christians don't have a stranglehold on morality.

And in typical Christian fashion, you snidely insert your pathetic little straw man arugment. Their position wasn't that she should die, it was that she was already dead. It's amazing how often you have to twist around the views of others simply so you can sleep better at night.

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.

[lotimer]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.

WOW! Hot damn that's magnificent. HEAR HEAR! -insert huge clapping hands smiley here-

[Synner]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.
Wow....I wish I could give you another greenie. <respectful clap>

[Virginia]

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.
No.

[Virginia]

Poor Ginny! Makes you want to just stand in the middle of your yard & scream over & over again, doesn't it? My day has sucked big time, too - but at least my family is well. And, unfortunately, the insane Jack Russell terrorist dog is too! And George (sigh) what can we say about George - I just hope that tight band around my chest that keeps me from breathing well will go away soon. <here's where my sad face emoticon would be - IF I HAD ONE!>
I admit to having a few heated conversations with God this week. I told Him good.
*sheepish grin*

[Spelling Nazi]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.

Wow....I wish I could give you another greenie. <respectful clap>
I’m out of greenies too. But I think I can improvise an even better form of feedback.

*Hug*
*Kiss*

“Droog, you had me at point number 1.”

[Jehovah]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.Kudos, my friend.

[Jehovah]

No.The typical hallmark of Christian respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others, with its usual accoutremant of a healthy ladling of arrogance and hypocrisy.

Shame on you.

[Jehovah]

Ah yes...they didn't live up to your moral standards. Too bad. It's about time people started to stand up and say that Christians don't have a stranglehold on morality.

And in typical Christian fashion, you snidely insert your pathetic little straw man arugment. Their position wasn't that she should die, it was that she was already dead. It's amazing how often you have to twist around the views of others simply so you can sleep better at night.It's not so much "often" as it is "essential".

[love_lost]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment...And a god-damned fine rant it is.

Nice flow, excellent focus- and yet still suggestive of a good man, not given to anger, slowly balling his fists... excellent.

I'd do a whole American Idol thingie here, but, frankly? That show gives me the hebbie jebbies.

However, for my part, I promise to continue not praying for you as hard as I can. Although I should ask- is thinking of you benevolently still ok?

(And as an aside, just a suggestion on my part- and admittedly coming from me it’s not worth all that much, but- for those of you who might feel hurt, offended, or otherwise put-out-of-place by that last part of Droog's post, I understand. But-

Let it go.

I know that may seem harsh, but.. Out of all of us, there’s exactly one person here who completely understands what Droog’s situation is. And that would be the man himself. And from the very little I know, what he’s going through is- far and away- something much, much worse than most of us will ever be cursed with having to come to grips with. Give the man the dignity of deciding what appeals he feels are appropriate… It's his call, not ours. If he changes his mid, fine. But otherwise?

Let it go.)

[love_lost]

And by the way, Droog- as far as this one goes?
I’m out of greenies too. But I think I can improvise an even better form of feedback.

*Hug*
*Kiss*

“Droog, you had me at point number 1.” For once, you were completely right- she's like a button.

Or, um, rather- she's like a formidable button, with, like razor sharp edges, and... uh... well, I don't know... made out of some incredibly hard material- way harder than diamonds... and with terrible, pointy teeth...

But still, button-like, in her way.

[Kestrel]

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.
Amen!


3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book...
again!


they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.
Damn. All that does is remind me how very few believe as I do. And how all too soon, there will be one less.
(ya big jerk)

I'll put forth verse happily on your behalf.


And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being,
Well, you did clearly state that it was going to be a rant. So I'll move on to...


His will be done and not yours.
Indeed.


Peace.

[el_diablo]

pray that the two term limit is removed so that President Bush can serve additional terms beyond a second. we need to restore strong family values in this nation and continue to fight the war on evildoers. only President Bush is up to that task for the next decades. God bless President Bush and the republican party. :)
i pray that you're not really such a tool in person.

[Dora]

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.
You have been warned.

Well, that was the meanest thing you've ever said to me - do you feel better now?

Has it ever occured to you, hon, that prayer gives comfort to the one who is praying also, we feel like we're doing something to help?

Do you really think God is that petty?

Do you want to vent some more? Go ahead, if it makes you feel better!


(edited because my feelings were hurt & I didn't want to say anything less than kind to a friend)

I <HEART> you Droog - even if you are a grumpy butt sometimes.

(this is where the kiss on the cheek would be if I HAD EMOTICONS!)

[Virginia]

The typical hallmark of Christian respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others, with its usual accoutremant of a healthy ladling of arrogance and hypocrisy.

Shame on you.
I will not stop lifting Droog in prayer..
or you..
or Michael...
or Fuzzi...
or Lamb...
or my children...
or my family..
..etc..

Amazing that you see an act of love as disrespectful, arrogant, intolerant and hypocritical.

[Droog]

I was asked in a PM from someone I won't name concerning my prior post:


Enjoying your tantrum, dear?

To which I will reply publically: NUTS!

Did I hurt feelings and step on toes? Absolutely!
Am I happy about it? Absolutely!

Not.

Am I sorry? Yes. Certainly. I'm sorry for a whole host of things. Will you indulge me while I list them?

I'm sorry that I didn't have the fortitude and constitution to galantly absorb the news that I received yesterday which shot to hell my fantasy that I might actually beat this thing or at least delay the inevitable.

I'm sorry that I was exceedingly blunt rather than intersparsing wit and charm as I usually do which is ultimately how I compensate for an exceedingly anguished and broken heart.

I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot.

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.

I'm sorry that I won't have the time to make it up to those who might have been hurt and offended.

I'm sorry for having to be sorry in the first place.

So you now have my public apology. It is my sincerest wish that it is at least minimally acceptable.

Now, if you would excuse me, I've got a bit more crying to do and a quiet tantrum to wage.

[Mr. Drags]

Look here. I've got to rant a moment and this will be me coming out of my face. And I'm going to build off of Synner's post because I'm of a similiar mindset. Expect it to be unpleasant because I'm feeling rather unpleasant as it is.

1. Please pray for George Bush because he was so adamant that collateral damage was a necessary evil. Included in His and my country's administration's definition of collateral damage were children, mothers, fathers, sisters, brother, uncles, aunts, sons, daughters, and friends who hadn't one goddamned thread of complicity in anything untoward. I sure as shite would not that Dubya face God's final judgment with that on his life record.

2. Please pray for the Christian right in America who haven't the wherewithal to draw one consistent goddamn fucking line in the sand other than what suits their agenda for the moment.

3. Please pray that the Christian right in America will wake the fuck up and stop trying to legislate morality and come to realize that as per the Good Book, they're ambassadors, not invaders. Want verse? Of course not. It'd trip up your purpose driven life.

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned. and therein lies the proverbail nail on the head. Nicely said Droog


regarding the second post which I didn't see, I'm sorry you're having to bear this burden. I hope that those who are closest to you are helping wiht the load

[Jehovah]

I will not stop lifting Droog in prayer..
or you..
or Michael...
or Fuzzi...
or Lamb...
or my children...
or my family..
..etc..

Amazing that you see an act of love as disrespectful, arrogant, intolerant and hypocritical.It's not an act of love. It goes directly against the wishes of someone. He plainly asked you to stop. Why is it beyond you to respect that desire?

This issue may seem trivial, but actually it goes to the very core of what is wrong with theism -- the sense of self-importance that it breeds which sees no compromise, no willingness to embrace any conflicting views, even when someone is facing their death, it's still all about what you believe, what you want.

You cannot respect that desire -- and you announce how you will continue to pray for others -- because you are arrogantly prideful. You want everyone to know how "right" your beliefs are. How "loving" your god is.

What's amazing is your inabillity to respect wishes and beliefs that are not your own.

I respect Dorable for at least being honest about what this is really about:


Has it ever occured to you, hon, that prayer gives comfort to the one who is praying also, we feel like we're doing something to help?Precisely. It's not about Droog in the end, it's about what makes you feel better. Once again the hallmark of why theism exists at all: Not fact, not reason, not logic, but because it feels good.

Respect his wishes, Virginia. Go that tiny extra step and put your pride away. As your own book says:

Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

[Virginia]

I was asked in a PM from someone I won't name concerning my prior post:



To which I will reply publically: NUTS!

Did I hurt feelings and step on toes? Absolutely!
Am I happy about it? Absolutely!

Not.

Am I sorry? Yes. Certainly. I'm sorry for a whole host of things. Will you indulge me while I list them?

I'm sorry that I didn't have the fortitude and constitution to galantly absorb the news that I received yesterday which shot to hell my fantasy that I might actually beat this thing or at least delay the inevitable.

I'm sorry that I was exceedingly blunt rather than intersparsing wit and charm as I usually do which is ultimately how I compensate for an exceedingly anguished and broken heart.

I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot.

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.

I'm sorry that I won't have the time to make it up to those who might have been hurt and offended.

I'm sorry for having to be sorry in the first place.

So you now have my public apology. It is my sincerest wish that it is at least minimally acceptable.

Now, if you would excuse me, I've got a bit more crying to do and a quiet tantrum to wage.

You're entitled. I'll be on the snuggle couch when you're ready.

[Kestrel]

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.


It's not some online persona, or some sort of perceived character that we love.

It's you that we love, mate.

I am sure that no one here holds being human against you.

Apology?
No harm.
No foul.

[Mr. Drags]

It's not some online persona, or some sort of perceived character that we love.

It's you that we love, mate.

I am sure that no one here holds being human against you.

Apology?
No harm.
No foul.
Ditto.

I'll even let you play highlander instead of me, Droog

[Virginia]

It's not some online persona, or some sort of perceived character that we love.

It's you that we love, mate.

I am sure that no one here holds being human against you.

Apology?
No harm.
No foul.

Perfectly said, Kes *insert smiley here*

[Kestrel]

You're entitled. I'll be on the snuggle couch when you're ready.
Snuggle couch??

I uh, stubbed my toe rather forcefully last December... it's still kinda givin' me some trouble...

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[Virginia]

It's not an act of love. It goes directly against the wishes of someone. He plainly asked you to stop. Why is it beyond you to respect that desire?

This issue may seem trivial, but actually it goes to the very core of what is wrong with theism -- the sense of self-importance that it breeds which sees no compromise, no willingness to embrace any conflicting views, even when someone is facing their death, it's still all about what you believe, what you want.

You cannot respect that desire -- and you announce how you will continue to pray for others -- because you are arrogantly prideful. You want everyone to know how "right" your beliefs are. How "loving" your god is.

What's amazing is your inabillity to respect wishes and beliefs that are not your own.

I respect Dorable for at least being honest about what this is really about:

Precisely. It's not about Droog in the end, it's about what makes you feel better. Once again the hallmark of why theism exists at all: Not fact, not reason, not logic, but because it feels good.

Respect his wishes, Virginia. Go that tiny extra step and put your pride away. As your own book says:

Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

no jehovah...you dont know the motivation of my heart. I do and I've no doubt that Droog does.

[Droog]

Well, I suppose there is a bright side to all this.

I've got more greenies than the bible's got psalms.

It's funny because before I went into the business world, I told my parents that I wanted to become a comedian.

Well, they're not laughing now.

[Virginia]

Snuggle couch??

I uh, stubbed my toe rather forcefully last December... it's still kinda givin' me some trouble...

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How'd you do that!?? The smiley not the fake toe stub trick *winking smiley here*

[Kestrel]

How'd you do that!?? The smiley not the fake toe stub trick *winking smiley here*
Follow the link in my sig to Simon666's .
The guys got it covered!

[Jehovah]

no jehovah...you dont know the motivation of my heart. I do and I've no doubt that Droog does.There's no mystery to what the motivation of your heart is-- you've posted it publicly.

And according to your bible, you've got your reward already.

Go ahead and have the last word. I'll defer reply, out of respect for issues of vastly greater -- and pointedly human -- importance.

[Dora]

Proverbs 16:18 - Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Excuse me - I have to get my two cents in here - just exactly what do you know about this situation? Have you been on this weeks long emotional rollercoaster ride with Ginny & I? Do you have ANY comprehension of how much we have cried, & raged and yes, prayed for our George? Do you have any idea what we feel? Or how very much we love our friend? The answer is no - you don't.

Yes, our prayers do comfort us - and we sincerely hope that they will help him - because WE can't! And if there was anything else we could do, we would. But we can't be there with him to hold his hand, or give him hugs, or snuggle on the couch, or sit with him and talk when he can't sleep at night. So we offer him all we have to give him - our love & our prayers - and despite his anger, we know he appreciates them.

So - shame on you - you shouldn't jump on Ginny - or misconstrue our motives, because you don't know how much we care about our Droog.
WE know his anger isn't personal - and he knows we would never do anything to harm him.

Now, thanks to you - I'M in a pissy mood.

[Dora]

I was asked in a PM from someone I won't name concerning my prior post:



To which I will reply publically: NUTS!

Did I hurt feelings and step on toes? Absolutely!
Am I happy about it? Absolutely!

Not.

Am I sorry? Yes. Certainly. I'm sorry for a whole host of things. Will you indulge me while I list them?

I'm sorry that I didn't have the fortitude and constitution to galantly absorb the news that I received yesterday which shot to hell my fantasy that I might actually beat this thing or at least delay the inevitable.

I'm sorry that I was exceedingly blunt rather than intersparsing wit and charm as I usually do which is ultimately how I compensate for an exceedingly anguished and broken heart.

I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot.

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.

I'm sorry that I won't have the time to make it up to those who might have been hurt and offended.

I'm sorry for having to be sorry in the first place.

So you now have my public apology. It is my sincerest wish that it is at least minimally acceptable.

Now, if you would excuse me, I've got a bit more crying to do and a quiet tantrum to wage.

You don't owe anyone an apology. You're supposed to be angry. If we get pissy, well too bad! We're not mad at YOU - we're mad at cancer.

I <HEART> Droog - now Ginny, scoot over & we'll let him set between us, ok?

[Dora]

It's not some online persona, or some sort of perceived character that we love.

It's you that we love, mate.

I am sure that no one here holds being human against you.

Apology?
No harm.
No foul.

AMEN - no truer words were ever spoken!

<applause, applause, applause>

[Virginia]

There's no mystery to what the motivation of your heart is-- you've posted it publicly.

And according to your bible, you've got your reward already.

Go ahead and have the last word. I'll defer reply, out of respect for issues of vastly greater -- and pointedly human -- importance.
word

[Virginia]

You don't owe anyone an apology. You're supposed to be angry. If we get pissy, well too bad! We're not mad at YOU - we're mad at cancer.

I <HEART> Droog - now Ginny, scoot over & we'll let him set between us, ok?
geeeeeeeez woman...I dont even share Reeses!

Ya'll have a good day. I'm late and draggin my feet.

[Synner]

I was asked in a PM from someone I won't name concerning my prior post:



To which I will reply publically: NUTS!

Did I hurt feelings and step on toes? Absolutely!
Am I happy about it? Absolutely!

Not.

Am I sorry? Yes. Certainly. I'm sorry for a whole host of things. Will you indulge me while I list them?

I'm sorry that I didn't have the fortitude and constitution to galantly absorb the news that I received yesterday which shot to hell my fantasy that I might actually beat this thing or at least delay the inevitable.

I'm sorry that I was exceedingly blunt rather than intersparsing wit and charm as I usually do which is ultimately how I compensate for an exceedingly anguished and broken heart.

I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot.

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.

I'm sorry that I won't have the time to make it up to those who might have been hurt and offended.

I'm sorry for having to be sorry in the first place.

So you now have my public apology. It is my sincerest wish that it is at least minimally acceptable.

Now, if you would excuse me, I've got a bit more crying to do and a quiet tantrum to wage.
Droog, my friend, you don't owe anyone a damn thing. Least of all an apology.

[Guest4]

I agree.. and I must thank you for solving a puzzle thats plagued me my life. Pointing out that I'm a pussycat explains why I spray when I get nervous..Thank you Droog!

For whatever comfort it may bring, know that you've inspired so many people to think and question with honesty and humor, and there are many people you've never met that are hoping the best your you.

[Chosen]

Read these words, but read them disregarding everything else that would have you disregard them. There are two separate passages, and each verse in each passage was chosen by God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. This may sound snobbish, or self-righteous, or holier-than-thou, but I assure you I am of good intention.


Psalm 34:1-10

1 I will extol the LORD at all times;

his praise will always be on my lips.

2 My soul will boast in the LORD ;

let the afflicted hear and rejoice.

3 Glorify the LORD with me;

let us exalt his name together.

4 I sought the LORD , and he answered me;

he delivered me from all my fears.

5 Those who look to him are radiant;

their faces are never covered with shame.

6 This poor man called, and the LORD heard him;

he saved him out of all his troubles.

7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him,

and he delivers them.

8 Taste and see that the LORD is good;

blessed is the man who takes refuge in him.

9 Fear the LORD , you his saints,

for those who fear him lack nothing.

10 The lions may grow weak and hungry,

but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.

John 3:16-21
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

[Synner]

And I already sent Synner my prediction for winner of AI which can, of course, be taken to the bank. :)

ClaireI didn't get any such prediction. PM it to me? I'm thinking Carrie Underwood. At any rate, we know it isn't going to be this guy....

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0331051_american_idol_scott_1.html

[Jehovah]

I didn't get any such prediction. PM it to me? I'm thinking Carrie Underwood. At any rate, we know it isn't going to be this guy....

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0331051_american_idol_scott_1.htmlI disagree. Like James Brown, a dozen or so rappers (dead and alive), and any other number of celebs, he fits right in.

[Synner]

I disagree. Like James Brown, a dozen or so rappers (dead and alive), and any other number of celebs, he fits right in.'True dat'.

[Spelling Nazi]

Am I sorry? Yes. Certainly. I'm sorry for a whole host of things. Will you indulge me while I list them?

I'm sorry that I didn't have the fortitude and constitution to galantly absorb the news that I received yesterday which shot to hell my fantasy that I might actually beat this thing or at least delay the inevitable.

I'm sorry that I was exceedingly blunt rather than intersparsing wit and charm as I usually do which is ultimately how I compensate for an exceedingly anguished and broken heart.

I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot.

I'm sorry for stepping outside the bounds of my character which you've become acustomed to and apparently love.

I'm sorry that I won't have the time to make it up to those who might have been hurt and offended.

I'm sorry for having to be sorry in the first place.

So you now have my public apology. It is my sincerest wish that it is at least minimally acceptable.

Now, if you would excuse me, I've got a bit more crying to do and a quiet tantrum to wage.
No apology required. You never said anything that needs an apology. And after everything you’ve given us - the laughs, the lessons and your time - I don’t see how anyone could ask for anything more from you. Thank you, Droog.

[Spelling Nazi]

And by the way, Droog- as far as this one goes? For once, you were completely right- she's like a button.

Or, um, rather- she's like a formidable button, with, like razor sharp edges, and... uh... well, I don't know... made out of some incredibly hard material- way harder than diamonds... and with terrible, pointy teeth...

But still, button-like, in her way.
Actually I always fancied myself as a bright red button that launches inter-continental ballistic nuclear missiles. I’d have a big warning sign that has “Do Not Push” written on it. But if you were to pause and read between the lines, you’d slowing realize that it actually says, “Are you a risk taker? Are you a curious explorer? Do you really like Vladimir Putin?”

While you ponder these questions, I’d look at you in a way that only a button can. I’d smile and whisper, “Awwww, I feel so neglected here. I just want to be touched. Is that too much to ask? Really now, what’s the worst that could happen?”

You’d mumble an answer, but I’d just laugh it off with a reply, “Hey, did you just say Nuclear Holocaust to a Spelling Nazi? That’s a good pun!”

And now you know why I have a tendency towards destructive relationships.

[Spelling Nazi]

SN, :D, Jehovah must get greenies for this clever and astute evaluation. I see we have similar senses of humar SN....I am not surprised. (I try to spell properly btw :D)

And I already sent Synner my prediction for winner of AI which can, of course, be taken to the bank. :)

Claire
What? How can we be similar if you’re writing like that?

Wait, let’s examine this in the abstract. Your post was funny, cheeky and other than the deliberate joke it had perfect spelling. Actually, I guess that is fairly similar.

I’m going to have to keep an eye on you. The last time I found a clone, she was 1/8th my size and bald. She was hilarious, and ultimately too funny. Started stealing the spotlight from me despite the fact that all she did was pantomime. Upstaged all my witty dialogue.

[Trinity]

Droog:




Sunset and evening star,
And one clear call for me!
And may there be no moaning of the bar,
When I put out to sea,

But such a tide as moving seems asleep,
Too full for sound or foam,
When that which drew from out the boundless deep
Turns again home.

Twilight and evening bell,
And after that the dark!
And may there be no sadness of farewell;
When I embark;

For tho' from out our bourne of Time and Place
The flood may bear me far,
I hope to see my pilot face to face
When I have crossed the bar.

[love_lost]

Actually I always fancied myself as a bright red button that launches inter-continental ballistic nuclear missiles. I’d have a big warning sign that has “Do Not Push” written on it. But if you were to pause and read between the lines, you’d slowing realize that it actually says, “Are you a risk taker? Are you a curious explorer? Do you really like Vladimir Putin?”

While you ponder these questions, I’d look at you in a way that only a button can. I’d smile and whisper, “Awwww, I feel so neglected here. I just want to be touched. Is that too much to ask? Really now, what’s the worst that could happen?”

You’d mumble an answer, but I’d just laugh it off with a reply, “Hey, did you just say Nuclear Holocaust to a Spelling Nazi? That’s a good pun!”

And now you know why I have a tendency towards destructive relationships.
Let me see-

Cute as a bright, red button OF THE APOCALYPSE...

Yep- works for me.

[fuzzi pariah]

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.

You have been warned.
Brother, I cannot stop praying for you, nor should you ask it. Scripturally, you are incorrect in this. We are instructed to pray, for others, and so we follow what God wants and not necessarily what men want.

"And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;" (Luke 18:1)

"For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;" (Romans 1:9)

"And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift." (2 Corinthians 9:14,15)

"Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;" (Ephesians 1:16)

"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;" (Ephesians 6:18)

"Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy," (Philippians 1:4)

"Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God." (Philippians 4:6)

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you," (Colossians 1:3)

"For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;" (Colossians 1:9)

"Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God." (Colossians 4:12)

"We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers;" (1 Thessalonians 1:2)

"Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?" (1 Thessalonians 3:10)

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23)

"Brethren, pray for us." (1 Thessalonians 5:25)

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11)

"Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you:" (2 Thessalonians 3:1)

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;" (1 Timothy 2:1)

"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting." (1 Timothy 2:8)

"I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;"(2 Timothy 1:3)

"I thank my God, making mention of thee always in my prayers," (Philemon 1:4)

"Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him." (James 5:14,15)

"Pray without ceasing." (1 Thessalonians 5:17)

And let's not forget Romans 8:28, k?

:)

[fuzzi pariah]

The typical hallmark of Christian respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others, with its usual accoutremant of a healthy ladling of arrogance and hypocrisy.

Shame on you.
Good job! You managed a very short post with almost all your favorite adjectives that you use in regards to Christians...

...oh, wait, you forgot sophistry...

;)

[Synner]

Good job! You managed a very short post with almost all your favorite adjectives that you use in regards to Christians...

...oh, wait, you forgot sophistry...

;)Good job! You manged to give an opinion on something without the almost robotic need to quote from the bible.

[Virginia]

Good job! You manged to give an opinion on something without the almost robotic need to quote from the bible.
Oh pashaw. She quotes scripture so you can read for yourself where and why she, a Christian, believes as she does. Furthermore, you KNOW this already.

[Synner]

Oh pashaw. She quotes scripture so you can read for yourself where and why she, a Christian, believes as she does. Furthermore, you KNOW this arleady.Yea...that must be it.

[fuzzi pariah]

It's not some online persona, or some sort of perceived character that we love.

It's you that we love, mate.

I am sure that no one here holds being human against you.

Apology?
No harm.
No foul.

Perfectly said, Kes *insert smiley here*
Amen...

[Virginia]

Yea...that must be it.
Know what you believe and why.

[Jehovah]

Good job! You managed a very short post with almost all your favorite adjectives that you use in regards to Christians...

...oh, wait, you forgot sophistry...

;)Well, thank you for providing the thread readers with an example of typical Christian sophistry then -- your post.

By the way, they aren't my "favorite adjectives" -- they are simply the accurate ones.

[fuzzi pariah]

Well, thank you for providing the thread readers with an example of typical Christian sophistry then -- your post.

By the way, they aren't my "favorite adjectives" -- they are simply the accurate ones.

:rolleyes:

:happy_04:

:happy_07:

[Trinity]

Droog:


I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy’d
Greatly, have suffer’d greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro’ scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known; cities of men
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honour’d of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers,
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.


I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro’
Gleams that untravell’d world, whose margin fades
For ever and for ever when I move.
How dull it is to pause, to make an end,
To rust unburnish’d, not to shine in use!
As tho’ to breathe were life. Life piled on life
Were all too little, and of one to me
Little remains: but every hour is saved
From that eternal silence, something more,
A bringer of new things; and vile it were
For some three suns to store and hoard myself,
And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star,
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought.

[Jehovah]

:rolleyes:

:happy_04:

:happy_07:Still being a Christian are we?

Yes, still being a Christian.

[Virginia]

Still being a Christian are we?

Yes, still being a Christian.
Indeed :D A Christian with a sense of humour no less. Never smart to confuse a Christian with a doormat, jehovah.

[Jehovah]

Indeed :D A Christian with a sense of humour no less. Never smart to confuse a Christian with a doormat, jehovah.I'd give my eyeteeth to find a couple with brains, Virginia. Basic brains.

[Virginia]

I'd give my eyeteeth to find a couple with brains, Virginia. Basic brains.
By your hositility towards those who disagree with you, my impression is you prefer parrots.

[Jehovah]

By your hositility towards those who disagree with you, my impression is you prefer parrots.By your entrenched attempts to define my rebuttals to theistic assertions as "hostility", it's plain you prefer sheep.

[Virginia]

By your entrenched attempts to define my rebuttals to theistic assertions as "hostility", it's plain you prefer sheep.
And it only took you thirty minutes to finally figure out how to respond! Bravo! :happy_01:

Gnite jehovah...I've enjoyed your leg this evening. :D

[Spelling Nazi]

And please STOP praying for me. I fear you've gone and frustrated God and now he's taking it out on me as a lesson to you. The lesson being, His will be done and not yours.



No.



Brother, I cannot stop praying for you, nor should you ask it. Scripturally, you are incorrect in this.



Know what you believe and why.

If you two could stop putting your beliefs above everyone else’s for just a moment, I’d like you direct you to a few of Droog’s posts.

Here he lays out the (in)effectualness of prayer. It even references Scripture for you, fuzzi.


If it is according to His will.

Proof text:
1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

Conclusion:

For anyone who prays amiss, that is to say, not according to his generally unknown will, they will not receive what they ask for. Moreover, if ANYONE* prays and that prayer happens to be in alignment with His will, they will indeed receive what they ask for - either through sheer coincidence or... well, sheer coincidence.

Therefore, your statement, which you stood beside even as it was being impaled by logical bullets, is ultimately moot. Useless, needless, and irrelevant.

So the known worth of prayer is that is develops an inner sense of charity and empathy towards one's fellow human being. It also has been shown to have a placebo effect on health and well being. And there's more, but this is sufficient to prove my point.

http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showpost.php?p=76900&postcount=89


Here is where he informed you of why he doesn’t like prayer/free will. It strips away God’s omnipotence and omniscience and puts humans and God on the same level. It’s also worth noting that this was originally addressed to you, fuzzi. Did you ever read the response he gave you or did you just simply dismiss it because it was something you didn’t want to hear?
http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?p=95305#post95305


Try to understand that people have differing opinions than your own. Try to realize that the God you keep describing to him (and you claim it to be the same God he worships) is logically different than Droog’s. The way you describe it to him indicates a God no stronger than a human. Perhaps the previous sentence will clarify the insult but even if it doesn’t, just try to respect a difference of opinion.

[Jehovah]

And it only took you thirty minutes to finally figure out how to respond! Bravo! :happy_01:

Gnite jehovah...I've enjoyed your leg this evening. :DLet's see... do I make some kind of comment that I was actually doing something more important than responding to your bubble-headed posts, or let it go... hmmm, dilemma, dilemma...

[Jehovah]

If you two could stop putting your beliefs above everyone else’s for just a momentDon't you realize your entire approach fails right at this point, at word 15? It's at this point you come up against an old Sicilian tenet:

Probabilità grassa per queste grasso-teste ("Fat chance for these fat-heads.")

And remember: it's robotic to note they are arrogant hypocrites, so don't do it.

[love_lost]

<Sigh> Alright, damnit.

I really meant to say my piece and leave it at that. I hoped- arrogantly, presumptuously, but sincerely hoped- that a quiet observation, in a small font, might somehow have some moderating influence. It was a foolish hope, I give- but sometimes my optimism exceeds my reason, especially where the question of my ability to sway others is involved.

Trust me, however- I now stand completely disabused of any such notion.

So let me say again in bold and normal point font:

Give the man the dignity of deciding what appeals he feels are appropriate… It's his call, not ours. If he changes his mind, fine. But otherwise?

Let it go.Which means that, for the record-

If you two could stop putting your beliefs above everyone else’s for just a moment, I’d like you direct you to a few of Droog’s ...You've never been more right, Spelling Nazi.

And here?

His will be done and not yours. Indeed.Spot fucking on, Kestrel.

In addition:
Droog, my friend, you don't owe anyone a damn thing. Least of all an apology.Damn you for beating me to the punch, you over educated bastard...

And finally?
I'm sorry that I was so self-centered and so self-loathing that I failed to account for how prayer might be helping others cope with what I simply cannot. Can anyone here even begin to claim that it is fair, or right, or just that the man himself is reduced to apologizing for disagreeing with posters agitating on his behalf?

And now I’m reduced to doing something I promised I wouldn’t ever do on this board- I’m going to relate a meaningful, personal experience. It won’t happen again, so for any of you who are looking for outrageously inappropriate ammunition, take note:

This January, my mother, who was the only parent I would ever claim, died from AML at the age of 56, while visiting me over the holidays. This after 6 years of being declared 'cancer free’… that as recently as last September. The whole process of this end game was frightening, heart breaking and horrible beyond anything I’ve ever been through… And I’ve been through a lot of stuff, trust me

But of all the things I experienced in that month, one of the worst- and I say this as someone who was there, trying to help the nurses clean out my own mother’s airways as she died in my hands- is this:

My mother was, basically, a kind of bizarre Unitarian Buddhist- as she had been all her adult life. As was her brother who was her closest relative bar none.

Her best friend, on the other hand, who she knew form the age of 14 on, was a former catholic/born again Baptist. Generally, I had no problem with her coming and going in her visits even though I was warned against this, out of respect for their longstanding friendship… and because, at the time of my mother’s second hospitalization, I felt like her condition was such that any attempts at a last minute conversion, based on noting more than fear and the drugs she was forced to take, was so obviously futile and uncalled for that any reasonable human would just let it go.

Then, one day after taking one of my three times a day breaks while her 'best friend’ was filing in for me, I returned only to find all the statuary, religious iconography, and texts that my mother specifically asked to be present in the room as she died turned on its face, shoved into corners, and otherwise desecrated or shoved to the side- while the friend in who’s trust I left my completely incapacitated mother’s care was long gone.

If there is one point I can concretely point to where the whole thing changed from horrible to horrible and ugly- that was it.

Do I necessarily blame her for her actions? No, Not at all. They were clearly the result of heartfelt convictions- I completely understand the desire, on her part, to see her friend saved from the fires of hell.

Was it wildly disrespectful, divisive and predatory? Ultimately, unfortunately, and regrettably… yes.

Look, you guys- I get your need to do as your religious directives demand. I wouldn’t ask you to do anything else. And, more than many others, I respect the desire to do something in this case. To say that Droog was special beyond all measure is something of an understatement. Do it fervently, do it reverantly, and do it unendingly- by all means. The man deserves no less. The simple fact that all of us are still dicussing this issue is testiment enough to that.

But please, please, for the love of the god you all profess to believe in- here, on this very, very public board?

Respect the man’s wishes. Let it go.

Without getting specific- for those who already understand what I mean- There is more than enough tragedy involved here. There’s no need for those who know better to add to that by reducing the situation to mere fodder for the purposes of debate.

It’s the least that any of us who care for him can do…

[Virginia]

If you two could stop putting your beliefs above everyone else’s for just a moment, I’d like you direct you to a few of Droog’s posts.

Here he lays out the (in)effectualness of prayer. It even references Scripture for you, fuzzi.


Here is where he informed you of why he doesn’t like prayer/free will. It strips away God’s omnipotence and omniscience and puts humans and God on the same level. It’s also worth noting that this was originally addressed to you, fuzzi. Did you ever read the response he gave you or did you just simply dismiss it because it was something you didn’t want to hear?
http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?p=95305#post95305


Try to understand that people have differing opinions than your own. Try to realize that the God you keep describing to him (and you claim it to be the same God he worships) is logically different than Droog’s. The way you describe it to him indicates a God no stronger than a human. Perhaps the previous sentence will clarify the insult but even if it doesn’t, just try to respect a difference of opinion.

In the personal PMs and emails we've exchanged, Droog has often said he was lifting various people, including me at one time, up in prayer. These personal exchanges refute your claim and are counter to what Droog has said he is.

[Virginia]

Let's see... do I make some kind of comment that I was actually doing something more important than responding to your bubble-headed posts, or let it go... hmmm, dilemma, dilemma...

I believe you just did *insert smirking smiley here*

[Jehovah]

<Sigh> Alright, damnitMy deepest condolences on the loss of your mom. As I read your post I wondered if it was the impetus for your IH handle.

I too add my voice (again) in asking that those who claim to care about Droog respect his wishes. According to your bible, you have made public you were going to pray for him, and now you've received your reward. Done and done.

My own little "revelation". I've posted that same reply before in this thread, right here:

http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?p=102450#post102450

I got something from Droog I rarely get (and never desire). See below.

Take it for what it's worth, and let it go.

[Jehovah]

I believe you just did *insert smirking smiley here*Whoooooooo-dawggies! Nuthin' gits by you, Lurlene!

[Kestrel]

Don't mind me.
I'm just tagging the conversation at this point, so that when decorum allows me, I can reference the thread at this point and time.

[Chosen]

Ephesians 1:7
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

[fuzzi pariah]

Still being a Christian are we?

Yes, still being a Christian.
No, I am not being a Christian, I am a Christian...that is, a Bible-believing child of God.

There's a difference.

:D®

[fuzzi pariah]

I'd give my eyeteeth to find a couple with brains, Virginia. Basic brains.
Shall I call a dental surgeon?

I'd have to say that Kestrel and Droog have basic brains.

:happy_04:

[fuzzi pariah]

Let's see... do I make some kind of comment that I was actually doing something more important than responding to your bubble-headed posts, or let it go... hmmm, dilemma, dilemma...

I believe you just did *insert smirking smiley here*
OK, I'll bite...

...hey Virginia...have you ever heard anyone refer to a man as 'bubble-headed'???

;)

[fuzzi pariah]

love_lost:

My heartfelt sympathies for your loss. I've been there, of a sorts...arriving shortly after my Mom passed away, alone, in a hospital bed. I had told her, hours before, on the phone "I'll see you in the morning, Mom."

That spark of what made her my Mom wasn't there in the morning, and I still grieve, 11 years later.

To the subject at hand...I am not trying to use Droog as fodder for my beliefs, nor would I, ever.

As his sister in Christ, I rejoice at his conversion, but I know that his decision doesn't make his situation any easier to handle, not physically. Spiritually, yes, physically, no.

And that's my last word on it.

[Jehovah]

OK, I'll bite...

...hey Virginia...have you ever heard anyone refer to a man as 'bubble-headed'???

;)Again with the intimation of misogyny. Oooffah, is that all you've got, you sad little thing?

The term "bubble-headed" comes from a character in an old TV show called "Lost in Space". The character was Dr. Smith, who was a comic relief character (though he started off as a dramatically malevolent character who cause the entire show to happen). In any event, the actor (the amazing Jonathon Harris) decided to come up with alliterative insults that he would hurl at the Robot in the show, which truly defined his character and made him world-famous. One of the alliterative insults was:

"Bubble-headed booby"

There was also "Lugubrious Laggert", and some 1,000 or so others.

Anyway, will you ever stop insinuating and accusing me of misogyny for chrissake? I insult men as well. Others have already told you that the only of the misogyny here is in the fact that you see it where it doesn't exist. Find a better method of attack, you bubble-headed booby.

Oh, and I meant a Christian fundamentalist with brains.

[fuzzi pariah]

So, anyone know a good dental surgeon for jehovah?

;)

[Virginia]

OK, I'll bite...

...hey Virginia...have you ever heard anyone refer to a man as 'bubble-headed'???

;)
A few submariners :D

[Redondo Bleach]

The typical hallmark of Christian respect and tolerance for the beliefs of others, with its usual accoutrement of a healthy ladling of arrogance and hypocrisy...What's amazing is your inability to respect wishes and beliefs that are not your own.
"The beliefs of others," huh? "Beliefs that are not your own?" In case the demons crawling in and out of the pockets of your clothes have blinded you to the fact, Droog recently became a Christian. Virginia was speaking as unto a brother, and you have no part in the conversation.

I haven't made a big deal out of Droog's conversion, because he hasn't made a big deal out of it, at least in this forum; but I will not permit you to portray him as the noble, longsuffering unbeliever, beset and beseiged by the diabolical Christians, because he simply isn't in that position. I have been in communication with him, and our communications will remain private; he knows how I feel about him, and I am looking forward to spending eternity with him. As for his recent "don't-pray-for-me" outburst, it was perfectly understandable and not even a thing to be forgiven: if you ever face the agonies he is facing, we'll see how gracefully you handle it.


....it's not about Droog in the end, it's about what makes you feel better.
Go sit on a tack, you insufferable hypocrite: you don't care whether Droog prospers or suffers, lives or dies. If you did, you wouldn't use his current circumstances as a pretext for more of your eternal, infernal Christian-bashing. You have passed beyond mere offensiveness; in your hatred of God and your fear of judgment, you have become so twisted and dishonest that you are no longer recognizably human.

I will, perhaps, continue to ridicule your pompous and self-aggrandizing posts, but I will not address you directly, either publicly or privately, for any reason. One may be either amused or disgusted by the antics of a chimpanzee masturbating in a zoo-cage, but one is not obligated to engage it in conversation.

[Jehovah]

You are a sad, sad man Bill. You have not a single clue as to what you are talking about.

This endless fight over Droog you and your friends continue to harvest is sweepingly beneath me. It is covered in filth as far as I am concerned, and I will not stoop to address it. Period.

As to your personal attack upon me, well, "physician, heal thyself" comes to mind. You condemn me for hatred, while spewing your own. And you call me an "insufferable hypocrite" while you yourself stand upon the pedastal for all to see. Your hatred is evident:


You have passed beyond mere offensiveness; in your hatred of God and your fear of judgment, you have become so twisted and dishonest that you are no longer recognizably human.Well, Bill-- you are recognizably human, even with your flaws and failings. Even with what you'd call your sins. But my worldview precludes me from considering you, or anyone -- less than human. That your worldview leads you to such hatreds is your own affair.

I step away from you now.

[Chosen]

I cannot speak for Bill, and I do not wish to. What he has said are the words he had to say. It is obvious that there is a history between you two and that something said has touched a sensitive spot in his heart. What each person has to ask themself is "How are the words being said having an impact on myself and others?" Therein lies the truth to determining where each stands.

The following passage is worthwhile to read, both regarding the current situation with Droog choosing the path to life and for any who have pondered their own destination. I would not want to be the person who chides another for making a choice of their own volition, and when the final day of glory comes I hope that I have smelled of sweet perfume to those whose hearts are not hardened.


2 Corinthians 2:14-17
14 But thanks be to God, who made us his captives and leads us along in Christ's triumphal procession. Now wherever we go he uses us to tell others about the Lord and to spread the Good News like a sweet perfume. 15 Our lives are a fragrance presented by Christ to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those being saved and by those perishing. 16 To those who are perishing we are a fearful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this? 17 You see, we are not like those hucksters--and there are many of them--who preach just to make money. We preach God's message with sincerity and with Christ's authority. And we know that the God who sent us is watching us.

[love_lost]

This endless fight over Droog you and your friends continue to harvest is sweepingly beneath me.Thank you Jehovah- I hereby dub ye 'first to publicly rise above the fray,' and present you with all honors and privileges attendant therein.

Now- for any one else, on either side, who is willing to do the right thing- there are honors and privileges to go around, but only for the first 50 customers. Local restrictions apply.*


* Offer does not apply to previous owners of “The High Road.” Sorry Kestral and KDFM. These privileges are offered to you conditioned upon your acceptance without modification of the terms, conditions, and notices contained herein. Assumption and/or use of these privileges implies acceptance of all such terms, conditions, and notices. If you do not agree to these terms, love_lost will not offer these honors and privileges to you, and in that case you should discontinue the assumption of such promptly, including the appearance of indirect agreement, to love_lost, at the users expense.

[love_lost]

What each person has to ask themself is "How are the words being said having an impact on myself and others?" Therein lies the truth to determining where each stands.And with that, I give you spot number two.

[lamb 'o God]

"The beliefs of others," huh? "Beliefs that are not your own?" In case the demons crawling in and out of the pockets of your clothes have blinded you to the fact, Droog recently became a Christian. Virginia was speaking as unto a brother, and you have no part in the conversation.

I haven't made a big deal out of Droog's conversion, because he hasn't made a big deal out of it, at least in this forum; but I will not permit you to portray him as the noble, longsuffering unbeliever, beset and beseiged by the diabolical Christians, because he simply isn't in that position. I have been in communication with him, and our communications will remain private; he knows how I feel about him, and I am looking forward to spending eternity with him. As for his recent "don't-pray-for-me" outburst, it was perfectly understandable and not even a thing to be forgiven: if you ever face the agonies he is facing, we'll see how gracefully you handle it.


Go sit on a tack, you insufferable hypocrite: you don't care whether Droog prospers or suffers, lives or dies. If you did, you wouldn't use his current circumstances as a pretext for more of your eternal, infernal Christian-bashing. You have passed beyond mere offensiveness; in your hatred of God and your fear of judgment, you have become so twisted and dishonest that you are no longer recognizably human.

I will, perhaps, continue to ridicule your pompous and self-aggrandizing posts, but I will not address you directly, either publicly or privately, for any reason. One may be either amused or disgusted by the antics of a chimpanzee masturbating in a zoo-cage, but one is not obligated to engage it in conversation.


Wow....

I'd read what 'j' said in response....but he's managed to alienate me as well.

But...the show must go on!

'j'? You're on, man....! :D

~a lamb of God

[Droog]

I cannot tell you how sorry I am for creating all this trouble with one sentence of one post.

[Synner]

I cannot tell you how sorry I am for creating all this trouble with one sentence of one post.You didn't create any trouble, Droog.

[Kestrel]

I cannot tell you how sorry I am for creating all this trouble with one sentence of one post.
Bah!
High emotion does that to most folks.
If it wasn't that, then it just would have been something else.

More than anything else, I feel that it has been a way for people to vent their frustration on behalf of the circumstance for a friend that we all wish we could change.
But can't.

BTW:
Make sure that whatever your last post is, it's not gonna be some "apology" stuff.

Because I will go to the UK, just to dig you up and kick your ass. :mad_01: ;)

[Droog]

You didn't create any trouble, Droog.

Well, I'm not indemnified of it either.
But, I appreciate the sentiment.

[Droog]

Bah!
High emotion does that to most folks.
If it wasn't that, then it just would have been something else.

More than anything else, I feel that it has been a way for people to vent their frustration on behalf of the circumstance for a friend that we all wish we could change.
But can't.

BTW:
Make sure that whatever your last post is, it's not gonna be some "apology" stuff.

Because I will go to the UK, just to dig you up and kick your ass. :mad_01: ;)

I apologize ahead of time if my last post is an apology. :mad_01:

[Jehovah]

I cannot tell you how sorry I am for creating all this trouble with one sentence of one post.Droogie, you've got nothing to apologize for-- but we all do. I'm sorry you came back to this stupidity, and any involvement I may have had in its continuance. What a buncha drama queens we are.

Shame on every last one of us.

[Kestrel]

very funny.

now where's that spade...

[Alli]

I apologize ahead of time if my last post is an apology. :mad_01:
Stop ignoring me! :mad_07:

[Droog]

Stop ignoring me! :mad_07:

Who? :p

[Virginia]

Welcome back, Droog :)

[Droog]

Droogie, you've got nothing to apologize for-- but we all do. I'm sorry you came back to this stupidity, and any involvement I may have had in its continuance. What a buncha drama queens we are.

Shame on every last one of us.

YOU, haven't anything to really be sorry for. You've been a great friend. It's too bad that you're not known in the manner that I know you. In any event, if I could apologize for RB, I would. But of course, I can't. And I suppose everyone will fill up green with illness if I apologize one more time.

[voyeurgirl]

Hi Droog!!!!!! :love_04:

[Kestrel]

Don't mind me.
I'm just tagging the conversation at this point, so that when decorum allows me, I can reference the thread at this point and time.
*discarded*

[Shipwrx]

YOU, haven't anything to really be sorry for. You've been a great friend. It's too bad that you're not known in the manner that I know you. In any event, if I could apologize for RB, I would. But of course, I can't. And I suppose everyone will fill up green with illness if I apologize one more time.

Welcome back Droog......... Must correct you however...... You were not greened for your illness..... Your very long Post got everyone's attention here... although noting your illness....... folks indubitably greened you for being a Gentleman and a Scholar.

[Droog]

Hi Droog!!!!!! :love_04:

Hi Gorgeous. :love_04:

[Cali/Yank]

Bill... How are you ? and how did you get to post?

[DavesGirl]

Please pray for Michael Shiavo and others who were so adamant that Terri die.

They need to realize what they have done, and repent. I would not that anyone face God's final judgment with that on their life record.

:(

What that supposed to mean? What HAVE "they" done? Let her move on to the better part of the rest of her life? Stopped her suffering? Honored some wishes she had years ago? You're judging their actions? Isn't it un-christian like to push an opinion such as needing repentance on anyone in a case that you know only what the media tells you?

I do find it a little disheartening that the women had to starve to death. But don't you think, AT ALL, that interfering with her inability to live is trying to alter God's plan? If God wanted her to live, she'd have done it...at least long enough for another judge to reverse yet another decision.

I can see you asking for the prayer...but the public condemnation could have been left out.

[Jehovah]

What that supposed to mean? What HAVE "they" done? Let her move on to the better part of the rest of her life? Stopped her suffering? Honored some wishes she had years ago? You're judging their actions? Isn't it un-christian like to push an opinion such as needing repentance on anyone in a case that you know only what the media tells you?

I do find it a little disheartening that the women had to starve to death. But don't you think, AT ALL, that interfering with her inability to live is trying to alter God's plan? If God wanted her to live, she'd have done it...at least long enough for another judge to reverse yet another decision.

I can see you asking for the prayer...but the public condemnation could have been left out.Too bad these same people aren't calling for the repentence of George Bush for his war in Iraq with all those civilians dying. You never hear them asserting that those responsible for this war with no exit strategy need to fear their final judgement, do you?

pssst... yeah, they're hypocrites. Plain as day.

[Cali/Yank]

Too bad these same people aren't calling for the repentence of George Bush for his war in Iraq with all those civilians dying. You never hear them asserting that those responsible for this war with no exit strategy need to fear their final judgement, do you?

pssst... yeah, they're hypocrites. Plain as day.

That's because I still believe the war is valid.

[lotimer]

Too bad these same people aren't calling for the repentence of George Bush for his war in Iraq with all those civilians dying. You never hear them asserting that those responsible for this war with no exit strategy need to fear their final judgement, do you?

pssst... yeah, they're hypocrites. Plain as day.


Speaking of warfare, I don't understand why alot of Christians support war for any reason as long as its done by America by a Republican president. I reference the bible verse in my sig that Christians love to ignore.

They scream "CHOOSE LIFE!" and in the same breath: "BOMB THEM RAGHEADS! GIVE HIM THE DEATH PENALTY!"

[Cali/Yank]

Speaking of warfare, I don't understand why alot of Christians support war for any reason as long as its done by America by a Republican president. I reference the bible verse in my sig that Christians love to ignore.

They scream "CHOOSE LIFE!" and in the same breath: "BOMB THEM RAGHEADS! GIVE HIM THE DEATH PENALTY!"

I can't answer for the "Christians" but for me, it's self preservation that counts.

[Jehovah]

Speaking of warfare, I don't understand why alot of Christians support war for any reason as long as its done by America by a Republican president. I reference the bible verse in my sig that Christians love to ignore.

They scream "CHOOSE LIFE!" and in the same breath: "BOMB THEM RAGHEADS! GIVE HIM THE DEATH PENALTY!"It does seem to be an utter hypocrisy, doesn't it?

The President and Congress convene on a Sunday to try to thwart the constitution and create a new law for one individual, but what is our exit strategy for Iraq? That they seem to not be worrying about.

I know this has political overtones, but it is relevant only to note that if some of the fervor about saving Terri Shiavo's life at all costs were applied to the war in Iraq, maybe we'd have less death and destruction. As it is, "Bomb Iraq" / "Keep Terri Alive At Any and All Costs" Christians have no leg to stand on. The positions are conflicting.

[Droog]

Too bad these same people aren't calling for the repentence of George Bush for his war in Iraq with all those civilians dying. You never hear them asserting that those responsible for this war with no exit strategy need to fear their final judgement, do you?

pssst... yeah, they're hypocrites. Plain as day.

Heh-heh-heh. I believe I ranted on that. Shhhh....

[fuzzi pariah]

What that supposed to mean? What HAVE "they" done? Let her move on to the better part of the rest of her life? Stopped her suffering? Honored some wishes she had years ago? You're judging their actions? Isn't it un-christian like to push an opinion such as needing repentance on anyone in a case that you know only what the media tells you?
Just what it said. They starved someone to death, a person was killed only because she was helpless...and the judge condoned it.

I will speak out against wrongs, there is nothing 'un-christian' about it. The Bible is full of examples of Jesus speaking out against those who needed to repent. "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47

If she was in a vegetative state, was she suffering? If she was suffering, why did they say her death was so peaceful and that she didn't suffer?

And if starvation is such a comfortable way to die, why did they give her a morphine drip...if she wasn't suffering?

The only information anyone had about what her wishes MIGHT have been was information from her spouse, who started living with another woman 10 years ago and had two children by his girlfriend. He appears to have had an agenda.

If there was doubt, which there was, they should not have given in to his insistence that she die. Any other court case would not have accepted heresay evidence.


I do find it a little disheartening that the women had to starve to death. But don't you think, AT ALL, that interfering with her inability to live is trying to alter God's plan? If God wanted her to live, she'd have done it...at least long enough for another judge to reverse yet another decision.
Are you suggesting that we withhold all medication and life saving treatments in order to allow people to die naturally? Shall we not have surgeries and procedures in order to help people to live longer lives?

Why don't you step in front of a speeding car...if the Lord wants you to live, He'll save you, right?

:rolleyes:


I can see you asking for the prayer...but the public condemnation could have been left out.
So, let's not call a spade a spade, and when people do wrong, let's not hurt their feelings by saying what they are doing is wrong. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20,21)

[fuzzi pariah]

And it's nice to see you, Droog. You've been missed.

:)

[Droog]

If there was doubt, which there was, they should not have given in to his insistence that she die. Any other court case would not have accepted heresay evidence.

Which court are you refering to, love? I believe it was 13 or so judges who all agreed over the years.



Are you suggesting that we withhold all medication and life saving treatments in order to allow people to die naturally? Shall we not have surgeries and procedures in order to help people to live longer lives?

Because it exists... does that mean that we must use it? Technology I mean.



Why don't you step in front of a speeding car...if the Lord wants you to live, He'll save you, right?

:rolleyes:

I believe many refer to that as "it wasn't his/her time." :)

[Droog]

And it's nice to see you, Droog. You've been missed.

:)

Yay™!

[fuzzi pariah]

Which court are you refering to, love? I believe it was 13 or so judges who all agreed over the years.
What court would accept heresay evidence to convict someone?

I'd hate to think that I could be sent to jail just because someone made up a story about me...


Because it exists... does that mean that we must use it? Technology I mean.
The problem is that it DOES exist, and we're unsure of the ethics needed to handle the new technologies.

In the last century there's been a switch from people believing in the sanctity of life to people discussing the 'quality' of life. Of course, the quality of anyone's life is subjective. Ask some handicapped people who have full lives, who would have been snuffed out if our society had allowed the euthanasia of infants and other 'unpersons'.

Once we decide that someone who is handicapped isn't worth feeding, who's next? Elderly? Mentally retarded?

It's coming...y'all watch...


I believe many refer to that as "it wasn't his/her time." :)
Ah, but you know that I base my beliefs on Scripture, and the Lord said to not tempt Him... ;)

[love_lost]

To quote Black Flag- "blah"- I've changed my mind.

[Droog]

What court would accept heresay evidence to convict someone?

I'd hate to think that I could be sent to jail just because someone made up a story about me...

There's a double entendre in there. I just know it!

Two things: Either a slew of courts accepted heresay evidence or what you might think is heresay actually isn't.

In tort law, which this case was, the application of heresay evidence rules and burden of proof are different than in criminal law. A great many tort cases are based on heresay. In any event, being that the husband asserted one thing, the burden of proof to contradict (corroborative heresay, recorded testimony, or written documentation) was on her family. They failed and failed miserably. So rather than the husband being suspect, the family's motives are suspect because they were unable to support their claims. The husband's claims, given that he is next of kin/guardian, do not require proof. His word is de facto.



The problem is that it DOES exist, and we're unsure of the ethics needed to handle the new technologies.

In the last century there's been a switch from people believing in the sanctity of life to people discussing the 'quality' of life. Of course, the quality of anyone's life is subjective. Ask some handicapped people who have full lives, who would have been snuffed out if our society had allowed the euthanasia of infants and other 'unpersons'.

Once we decide that someone who is handicapped isn't worth feeding, who's next? Elderly? Mentally retarded?

It's coming...y'all watch...

Well, the technology argument is flawed. Technology is not an entity but a tool. A sharpened, jagged stoned is an example of technological tool. It can be used to murder or provide sustenance. But it had no bearing on ethics nor morals. It simply replaced or augmented other means for accomplishing a certain task(s).

And there has been no switch whatsoever as to the notion of sanctity of life. To say that would mean to ignore humankind's bloody and often barbaric history. In fact today, we are more civil in some respects than we were 100 years ago. A read through the bible will certainly attest to the lack of the sanctity of life of yesteryear.



Ah, but you know that I base my beliefs on Scripture, and the Lord said to not tempt Him... ;)

And just how does on actually tempt(test) the Lord? Simply by not having true faith in one of his promises.

Example:


Mat 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mat 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

The underlined is the promise. The bold is the test. The only reason why Jesus would follow through with the test is to see if he really is the Son of God. But since he is confident without measure that he is, there's no need to demonstrate a lack of faith... or tempt/test.


So your prior of analogy of choosing to use technology to save lives or not does not at all follow with the notion of tempting God. If you don't use the technology, you're tempting God as much as if you do. Therefore, using technology is outside the realm of testing God.

In any event, you're making God out to be man-centric as oppossed to man being God-centric. Technology is moot if God decrees that one must die and when. And God does indeed declare the day of one's death. A believer cannot speak in terms of dying a natural or unnatural death. That sort of speak omits God and His power. He becomes powerless against humans. And if you say that "God allows" then you are forced to carry that thought to its conclusion: God ordains. So either God is in control of everything, including the things you don't like or He's in control of nothing which is the deist's ultimate POV. God cannot ever be said to limit His control. Ever. It eliminates the notion and need of a God. What is more, it completely contradicts every passage of scripture pertaining to His creation, every prophecy, every promise. None of thses things can be affected unless God is in complete and utter control of all things.

I state all that as a condition to this conclusion:

Schiavo's death was ordained by God. If he can't be in control of something as simple as that, how in Heaven and on Earth can He be trusted to ensure that the promise of Salvation will remain in full effect? Think about it. Satan, being an adversary (angelic barrister) actually stands a chance of winning his case against God then.

You don't see the connection do you?

If you assert that so called libertarian free will humans can take a life without God's exercising of his sovereignty over them, what is there to be said about God's ability to exercise His sovereignty over Satan? Another so called libertarian free will agent. Ah, but the book of Job clearly illustrates God's soveriegn power over not only Satan, but humankind as well. Satan wanted to hurt Job as a test of his faith and devotion. God gave Satan the express approval with modified conditions. Job's children were murdered with the express approval of God. And what's lovely about the story is that in the end, it puts the responsibility squarely on where even philosophically it could have been arrived at. God.


Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

As I have stated. God is either sovereign or not at all. There's no "in between" sort of sovereignty.

[Chosen]

Yay™!

I'm collecting royalties... :mad_01:

[Droog]

I'm collecting royalties... :mad_01:

I don't doubt it mate. You've got that seriously grim, grimly serious, utilitarian grey suit and trenchcoat, dull black gumshoe, rain spoiled notepad, needs to be shook in order to write Bic pen vibe thing going there.

Therefore, I wouldn't dare cheat Veeg out of her due. (And not to mention because she's so deliriously loveable.)

[lamb 'o God]

Speaking of warfare, I don't understand why alot of Christians support war for any reason as long as its done by America by a Republican president. I reference the bible verse in my sig that Christians love to ignore.

They scream "CHOOSE LIFE!" and in the same breath: "BOMB THEM RAGHEADS! GIVE HIM THE DEATH PENALTY!"

You know, speaking of that.....I don't understand why there wasn't a (relatively) single democrat condemning Clinton bombing Yugoslavia and parts of Iraq with cruise missles.

Not a peep. Not a single word.

Very, very strange (and hypocritical...with an emphasis on "critical").

Blessings,
~a (stumped) lamb of God

[love_lost]

There's a double entendre in there. I just know it!

Two things: Either a slew of courts accepted heresay evidence or what you might think is heresay actually isn't.

...
Schiavo's death was ordained by God. If he can't be in control of something as simple as that, how in Heaven and on Earth can He be trusted to ensure that the promise of Salvation will remain in full effect? Think about it. Satan, being an adversary (angelic barrister) actually stands a chance of winning his case against God then.Nicely put, from start to finish. As always.

However, I do have one question that I've been kicking around in my head, relating specifically to this:
As I have stated. God is either sovereign or not at all. There's no "in between" sort of sovereignty.Why, precisely? I mean, let’s accept as a given that god does posses a quality of sovereignty over all. How exactly does the argument that God might, in certain circumstances, allow a suspension of that quality necessarily call into question the idea that he could impose that sovereignty if he chose otherwise? Why should he be restricted to either a condition of (a) total and unquestionable authorship of all actions on this level of existence, or (b) a condition where his authority has no standing whatsoever?

And, to be specific, I’m thinking in paticular of the issue pf Arminian free will in relation to personal salvation. I give you that, in matters of prophecy, God’s actions are constrained to a certain, set path. However, it seems obvious that most issues of prophecy tend to lend themselves to one of two conditions: 1)situations where God clearly usurps any free will on the part of humans, but within a very constraind set of circumstances- for instance the passages in Exodus relating to pharaoh, or 2) situations where God seems to be describing the general movement of humanity at large, irregardless of individual decision- such as in Revelations. But neither of these requires God to impose his sovereignty over the mass of individuals in all things.

For instance, one could read the story of Job as an example of a case where God willingly gives up his claims of sovereignty, both in relation to Satan, and, more importantly, in terms of Job himself- sine the entire bet rests on whether or not Job will reject god in the absence of Gods influence. A clear case of God abstaining from imposing his right of sovereignty..

Therefore, in relation to the specific issue of individual salvation- isn’t it possible that god removes the onus of sovereignty so as to allow that each ‘decision in Christ’ adds to his glory absent any influence on his part?

I guess, to bring it down to a purely human level- due to my amazingly developed physique, I am able to bench 350 ponds. (Which equals an awful lot, metric.) Are you arguing that, because I don’t drop down and clear every obstacle in my path within this weight, that I loose the ability to do so? Shouldn’t I restrict my efforts for those instance where it seems important, or simply suits my purpose?

Just curious…

[Droog]

I ask that you pardon the length, but I wanted to seriously address this post.


Why, precisely? I mean, let’s accept as a given that god does posses a quality of sovereignty over all. How exactly does the argument that God might, in certain circumstances, allow a suspension of that quality necessarily call into question the idea that he could impose that sovereignty if he chose otherwise? Why should he be restricted to either a condition of (a) total and unquestionable authorship of all actions on this level of existence, or (b) a condition where his authority has no standing whatsoever?

:happy_07: <--- This little fellow I created and named widgettadigit.

I made him round and yellow. Very amiable fellow as you can see. And I set all the parameters to his being. And I made him such that he's always in motion. Then I set him inside a large square the boundaries of which he cannot pass. And I designed him such that when he encounters the square's boundaries he will reverse course away from the boundaries. Sometimes, for my pleasure, I set him on a different course than the one he's on presently. Sometimes I just watch him bounce off the boundary set before him.

Questions:

So, does widgettadigit have the free will to roll around at will or is his rolly-pollying a product of my design?
Can widgettadigit do other than to bounce off the boundaries of the square once encountered?
Can widgettadigit will himself to stop rolling?
Did widgettadigit have a say in the location of the boundaries and their impassability?
Did widgettadigit have a say in the square area of his domain?

You see then, that my sovereignty over widegttadigit is both passive and active. Passive in the sense that being creator I have already impossed limits on him which he cannot alter or exceed - both within his being and within his environment. Active in the sense that sometimes I actually reach down into his world and alter his course. But my soveriegnty over widge is everpresent by virtue of him being a product of my design. And if I didn't create him, yet someone else did, yet I only actively exercise control over him, then he'd have two sovereigns over him. The one who created him and myself who periodically intervenes in his course of affairs. But he's never truly free. Even if I didn't exercise any control over him. He's bound. A prisoner of design. Every thought he has concerning his rolling around is a direct function of his interaction with the environment I created for him. He cannot think of things outside that boundary unless I tell him about the things outside that boundary. But even then, he could only relate to the things which I tell him in terms of his environment which is all he actually knows.


And, to be specific, I’m thinking in paticular of the issue of Arminian free will in relation to personal salvation. I give you that, in matters of prophecy, God’s actions are constrained to a certain, set path. However, it seems obvious that most issues of prophecy tend to lend themselves to one of two conditions: 1)situations where God clearly usurps any free will on the part of humans, but within a very constraind set of circumstances- for instance the passages in Exodus relating to pharaoh, or 2) situations where God seems to be describing the general movement of humanity at large, irregardless of individual decision- such as in Revelations. But neither of these requires God to impose his sovereignty over the mass of individuals in all things.
I'll start with Revelations then move onto Exodus.

Imposition of sovereignty over the masses:


2Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Verse 11 clearly dispells the notion that God loves everyone and wants all to be saved. But it is clear evidence of Him exercising his Sovereignty over the masses.

Exodus is a bit more complex. You have to go back into Genesis and examine Joseph. It is because of God's leading that the Hebrews ended up in Egypt in the first place. There is no chance or happenstance involved. It's starts off with God endowing Joseph with dreams of prophecy. This ability makes Jospeh, the baby of eleven brethren, a hated sibling. (Gen37) Also, that his father Jacob loved him more than his brethren. Well, Joseph had a dream that his brethren and his parents would come to see him as a leader which they should pay respect to. (This is prophecy) How does God effectuate this prophecy? Starting in Gen 41, God ordains a famine in the land set to last seven years. But before this, God ordains seven years of plenty so that Egypt will be able to prepare for the coming famine. Jacob and his sons are unaware of the coming famine. But once it's upon them, they will need to seek out food or die. Jaocb knows that there is food in Egypt so he sends his sons there to get some. Long story short, Joseph becomes the prophesied hero which he said he would be back in gen 37.

Now, God ordered it such that Jacob and all his family were to dwell in Egypt. By directly causing the famine, he compelled Jacob to seek Egypt for sustenance. And survival insticnt cannot be easily overriden. So God, like me and widgettadigit, used both passive (design) and active (intervention) Sovereignty. Never can it be said that anyone here had the free will to do this or that. The free will argument at this point becomes speculative "woulda-coulda-shoulda." Joseph could have balked at his family and declared revenge for what this did. But that's speculative and useless pondering because it was ordained ahead of time precisely how he would act in gen 37.

Continuing to unfold God's plan... Since the Hebrews found good dwelling in Egypt, where resources were plentiful, they began to multiply. And that's a product of design. Animals, which humans are, tend to thrive where resources are plentiful. So God's active sovereignty which drove them to Egypt compliments his passive sovereignty of human design and insticnt.

Now could the Egyptians lived harmoniously with the great number of Hebrews? No. For two reasons. First because in the opening of Exodus, the new Pharoah reasoned that since the Hebrews outnumbered the Egyptians, they would eventually lay claim to their(Egyptian) civilization. Another base instinct that is by design. We all fear that our work and possessions will be stolen. And we do things to protect it. What is more, is that there already was precedent that when this sort of situation arises, the outcome is certain. So there is no point in taking a chance that the Hebrews won't rise up and supplant the Egyptians. And by God driving them into this situation, given his design of humankind, God knowingly drove them into what would become a bad situation. There's no chance involved. So here you have another example of God exercising his sovereignty over the masses.



For instance, one could read the story of Job as an example of a case where God willingly gives up his claims of sovereignty, both in relation to Satan, and, more importantly, in terms of Job himself- sine the entire bet rests on whether or not Job will reject god in the absence of Gods influence. A clear case of God abstaining from imposing his right of sovereignty..
One can't read it that way because Satan couldn't do anything without God's permission. And what is more, God told Satan what to do and what limits had to be observed. And Satan, by observing those limits, proved that God is sovereign. The bandits that killed Job's children, proved also, that God is sovereign. They didn't chose to kill them. They were compelled to do it by Satan but ultimately by God. The book of Job completely obliterates the notion of libertarian free will and therefore Arminianism. But it does support compatibilism which is that humans have a will but their will cannot allow them to do things outside of their inherrent, inate nature. Like my widgettadigit.


Therefore, in relation to the specific issue of individual salvation- isn’t it possible that god removes the onus of sovereignty so as to allow that each ‘decision in Christ’ adds to his glory absent any influence on his part?
He can't if for no other reason that he's responsible for their condition in the first place. Here's a point which is an aside but I want to go with it while I have it on my mind. God does not account for personal responsibility, ultimately. He deems you righteous or unrighteous solely based on faith. If you don't believe, you are condemned already. (John 3) And you simply cannot will yourself to believe. It's either you do or you don't. Now back to the issue at hand. God cannot scale back his soveriegnty simply because he created everything. By virtue of creating, he is always said to be passively sovereign. Every condition, variable, order, or physical law is a direct result of his act of creation. And all the sentient beings which exist in that environment which he created are always under the influence of that environment. Always. Therefore, they are under the influence of the one who created it. And these sentient beings are under the influence of the condition of their own being which is also created by God.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



I guess, to bring it down to a purely human level- due to my amazingly developed physique, I am able to bench 350 pounds. (Which equals an awful lot, metric.) Are you arguing that, because I don’t drop down and clear every obstacle in my path within this weight, that I loose the ability to do so? Shouldn’t I restrict my efforts for those instance where it seems important, or simply suits my purpose?

Just curious…
The problem with this example is that everything suits God's purpose.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[Spelling Nazi]

I guess, to bring it down to a purely human level- due to my amazingly developed physique, I am able to bench 350 ponds. (Which equals an awful lot, metric.)
You always have to throw in one of these conundrum questions, don’t you? This is a variant of the chicken and egg question. Does your amazingly developed physique allow you to bench 350 ponds, or did the manual labour involved in benching 350 ponds give you the amazing physique?

[Spelling Nazi]

:happy_07: <--- This little fellow I created and named widgettadigit.

I made him round and yellow. Very amiable fellow as you can see. And I set all the parameters to his being. And I made him such that he's always in motion. Then I set him inside a large square the boundaries of which he cannot pass. And I designed him such that when he encounters the square's boundaries he will reverse course away from the boundaries. Sometimes, for my pleasure, I set him on a different course than the one he's on presently. Sometimes I just watch him bounce off the boundary set before him.

Questions:

So, does widgettadigit have the free will to roll around at will or is his rolly-pollying a product of my design?
Can widgettadigit do other than to bounce off the boundaries of the square once encountered?
Can widgettadigit will himself to stop rolling?
Did widgettadigit have a say in the location of the boundaries and their impassability?
Did widgettadigit have a say in the square area of his domain?

You see then, that my sovereignty over widegttadigit is both passive and active. Passive in the sense that being creator I have already impossed limits on him which he cannot alter or exceed - both within his being and within his environment. Active in the sense that sometimes I actually reach down into his world and alter his course. But my soveriegnty over widge is everpresent by virtue of him being a product of my design. And if I didn't create him, yet someone else did, yet I only actively exercise control over him, then he'd have two sovereigns over him. The one who created him and myself who periodically intervenes in his course of affairs. But he's never truly free. Even if I didn't exercise any control over him. He's bound. A prisoner of design. Every thought he has concerning his rolling around is a direct function of his interaction with the environment I created for him. He cannot think of things outside that boundary unless I tell him about the things outside that boundary. But even then, he could only relate to the things which I tell him in terms of his environment which is all he actually knows.

Wow! Excellent, easy-to-follow post. Well done. (This was supposed to be a greenie, but I’ve run out).

I also liked how you corrected the spelling of pounds at the end.

[DavesGirl]

Just what it said. They starved someone to death, a person was killed only because she was helpless...and the judge condoned it.

I will speak out against wrongs, there is nothing 'un-christian' about it. The Bible is full of examples of Jesus speaking out against those who needed to repent. "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." (Luke 24:47

If she was in a vegetative state, was she suffering? If she was suffering, why did they say her death was so peaceful and that she didn't suffer?

And if starvation is such a comfortable way to die, why did they give her a morphine drip...if she wasn't suffering?

The only information anyone had about what her wishes MIGHT have been was information from her spouse, who started living with another woman 10 years ago and had two children by his girlfriend. He appears to have had an agenda.

If there was doubt, which there was, they should not have given in to his insistence that she die. Any other court case would not have accepted heresay evidence.


Are you suggesting that we withhold all medication and life saving treatments in order to allow people to die naturally? Shall we not have surgeries and procedures in order to help people to live longer lives?

Why don't you step in front of a speeding car...if the Lord wants you to live, He'll save you, right?

:rolleyes:


So, let's not call a spade a spade, and when people do wrong, let's not hurt their feelings by saying what they are doing is wrong. "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20,21)

I would really not like to side track the entire thread, but do have a comment.

You ask me to take an action that would ultimately take my life - and ask God to step in? That's hardly the same thing. And if I did step in front of a car and wasn't saved, then yes...it was my time. If I didn't die, then perhaps I have something left to do here. Can't do it as a vegetable, though.

Terry, in escence...did the same thing. We hear she had an eating disorder that lead to a heart attack. God didn't save her from it...man had to interfere. I'm not saying that where she is now, is where she ought to be or not...I reserve that judgement - its inappropriate for me to make, since I know aboslutely NOTHING but what the media tells me. Those that may be in an appropriate place to judge would be folks closer to the situation. Your publicly condemning the husband for his choice...I just disagree with it.

You offer conflict here. If she was in a vegetative state...was she suffering? My personal opinion is yes (but it sounds like your opinion would be no...in an effort to support reasoning for her to be kept alive). But we dont' know...only she and God know about suffering with any certainty. But, to be on the safe side the professionals drugged her to make the last stretch as comfortable as possible...similar to how they'd do if you had cancer and they could do nothing else. THen you You seem to be implying the technology is the end all. Its not. I'm not saying we shouldn't use it, by any means. What I am saying is that when you RELY on it for the most basic needs - maybe you weren't meant to be here still. Technology and medication is best used to RESTORE your own ability to survive, not serve as a tool in place of that ability.

I'm not saying what Mr. Shaivo did was right or wrong...that's between him and God...really. We could argue that a parent of a retarded child, that needs a feeding tube could decide their child doesn't need to live any longer, since he/she can't care for themselves...couldn't we? If that parent let their child starve to death, and gave them medication to soothe any pains...would they go scott free? I doubt it. They'd be prosecuted for negligence. But, until their 18, aren't we expected to provide it for them anway? children are incapable or providing properly for themselves...so guardians are expected to do it for them...till 18. If that same parent waited until that same retarded child was 18 to stop feeding him/her...would it be allowed to go unpunished?

Based on the Shaivo case, we'd have to say yes...it was the guardian's decision to make, since the party involved could not voice their opinion. They go scott free for murder...essentially. So I'm not fully in agreement with what happened. Don't mistake my opinion on that case with my opinion on public judgement.

If you were the sister of Terri, I might not be so inclined to question your public judgement...because as someone close to the situation - I'd feel it would be your right to judge. But, if I were close to the case...I would feel its not the right of the guy next door, or two states over to judge, based solely on what they know from the media has said.

[love_lost]

I also liked how you corrected the spelling of pounds at the end.As did I. A person of rare civility and admirable restraint, that Droog.

Unlike others.... :mad_01:

[fuzzi pariah]

The problem with this example is that everything suits God's purpose.

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Lack of time has prevented me from fully addressing this issue.

However, the last verse stuck out in my mind, and I'm going to answer briefly:

All the verses in the New Testament that contain the word 'predestinate' (count them, 'four') are aimed at believers, and are not part of any salvation message.

The Lord said whosoever will come will receive salvation. Plain enough.
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:15)

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

"Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:
But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." (John 4:13,14)

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26)

"I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness." (John 12:46)

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." (Acts 10:43)

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:12,13)

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15)

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." (1 John 5:1)

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)

[fuzzi pariah]

I'm not saying what Mr. Shaivo did was right or wrong...that's between him and God...really..
And that's why I said to pray for him, because he needed to repent. Without it, he'll have to face God someday, knowing why he did what he did.

[lotimer]

And that's why I said to pray for him, because he needed to repent. Without it, he'll have to face God someday, knowing why he did what he did.


The same thing can be said about Bush. For the mass murder of Iraqi civilians, for lying, and a slew of other things. But of course he is considered holier than everyone else by some, so it doesn't apply to him, right? Only judge people who don't fit your agenda? How's the air up there on that horse of yours?

[Droog]

Predestination is not a part of salvation? You're going to have to make that case. The verses surrounding Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 firmly plant predestination as a intergral, foundational part of salvation.


In any event, who is whosoever? More importantly, how does one come to believe?

And you can't use scripture such as, "faith comes by hearing" because the parable of the soils curbs any enthusiasm towards that end.

Explain in detail how one believes.

[fuzzi pariah]

The same thing can be said about Bush. For the mass murder of Iraqi civilians, for lying, and a slew of other things. But of course he is considered holier than everyone else by some, so it doesn't apply to him, right? Only judge people who don't fit your agenda? How's the air up there on that horse of yours?
Everyone is a sinner, and everyone needs to repent. That includes me and you and Droog and Mr. Shiavo and all.

[fuzzi pariah]

Predestination is not a part of salvation? You're going to have to make that case. The verses surrounding Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 firmly plant predestination as a intergral, foundational part of salvation.


In any event, who is whosoever? More importantly, how does one come to believe?

And you can't use scripture such as, "faith comes by hearing" because the parable of the soils curbs any enthusiasm towards that end.

Explain in detail how one believes.
Sure, I'll do my best, but tomorrow. I need to get some sleep.

[love_lost]

I ask that you pardon the length, but I wanted to seriously address this post.I pardon nothing- rather I appreciate an excellent response. I admit, the point you raise regarding Revelations does seem to nail the lid on the coffin of Arminianism.

However, I do have one further question, If you don't mind- and I'm going to keep it brief, because I'm told sleep is a good thing:
God cannot scale back his sovereignty simply because he created everything. By virtue of creating, he is always said to be passively sovereign. Every condition, variable, order, or physical law is a direct result of his act of creation. And all the sentient beings which exist in that environment which he created are always under the influence of that environment. Always. Therefore, they are under the influence of the one who created it. And these sentient beings are under the influence of the condition of their own being which is also created by God.[/indent]Isn't this placing limits on omnipotence? Aren't you in effect saying that there is one thing God can't do- crate beings who are able to rise above the preconditions they are born into? It would seem like this would the important distinction between the man/God relationship and the Droog/widgettadigit relationship- you can never create a widgettadigit that can rise above its programming. Thus the issue of widgettadigit free will is truly moot- but moot because of the limits of your abilities. A limitation omnipotence should remove, despite the seeming logical contradictions...

Sorry if that came out confusing- like I said, sleep. If it would help, and you're even vaugely interested, I'll clarify.

BTW, could I get one of those widgettadigits? I've been thinking I could use a pet...

[Droog]

However, I do have one further question, If you don't mind- and I'm going to keep it brief, because I'm told sleep is a good thing:Isn't this placing limits on omnipotence? Aren't you in effect saying that there is one thing God can't do- crate beings who are able to rise above the preconditions they are born into? It would seem like this would the important distinction between the man/God relationship and the Droog/widgettadigit relationship- you can never create a widgettadigit that can rise above its programming. Thus the issue of widgettadigit free will is truly moot- but moot because of the limits of your abilities. A limitation omnipotence should remove, despite the seeming logical contradictions...

Sorry if that came out confusing- like I said, sleep. If it would help, and you're even vaugely interested, I'll clarify.

It's impossible to determine if He can or can't. What we do know is that He did it in one particular way. Omnipotence isn't diminished if one didn't or doesn't do something. It's when it's proven that one can't. Though, to your credit, your question isn't in the same league as "can God create a wall so high that he can't jump over it?" That paradoxical question anthromophizes God. And in doing so becomes a non-sequitur. Since God is omnipresent (and said to be a spirit), the wall would also have to be omnipresent. But of course a wall cannot be omnipresent so the paradoxical question is a pointless exercise in trying to find a limit on God's omnipotence.

But to examine your question a bit further, He would also have had to create an environment which would also be able to rise above its preconditions in order to support the created being's rise out of its preconditions or have created an enviroment which would lend itself to the created being's ability to remold its environment to suit its rise out of its preconditions.

However, if you take into account evolution (which I hold as an observable fact of life on Earth), it can be said that God created beings whose preconditions change over time to suit the change in their environment. We as human beings have changed and in some respects, rising out of our prior preconditions. Through, some of our base instincts remain and manifest themselves with somewhat predictable regularity. Take the appendix for instance. An organ believed to have aided in the digestion of certain vegetation by regulating certain types of baterial flora in the intestinal tract. Suggesting that at one time, we were "grazing" creatures in the sense that we mostly ate plants that we found in nature. Yet not yet having cultivated them ourselves like the most other mammals. As we rose out of the precondition and learned to cultivate and then to hunt, the use of the appendix became less vital. So much so, that its function today remains speculative. Now, with this gradual change in precondition, came a change in our societal structure. We rose from being nomads to city dwellers.


BTW, could I get one of those widgettadigits? I've been thinking I could use a pet...


A pet?! Goodness man! Widge's a sentient being!

[Dora]

It's impossible to determine if He can or can't. What we do know is that He did it in one particular way. Omnipotence isn't diminished if one didn't or doesn't do something. It's when it's proven that one can't. Though, to your credit, your question isn't in the same league as "can God create a wall so high that he can't jump over it?" That paradoxical question anthromophizes God. And in doing so becomes a non-sequitur. Since God is omnipresent (and said to be a spirit), the wall would also have to be omnipresent. But of course a wall cannot be omnipresent so the paradoxical question is a pointless exercise in trying to find a limit on God's omnipotence.

But to examine your question a bit further, He would also have had to create an environment which would also be able to rise above its preconditions in order to support the created being's rise out of its preconditions or have created an enviroment which would lend itself to the created being's ability to remold its environment to suit its rise out of its preconditions.

However, if you take into account evolution (which I hold as an observable fact of life on Earth), it can be said that God created beings whose preconditions change over time to suit the change in their environment. We as human beings have changed and in some respects, rising out of our prior preconditions. Through, some of our base instincts remain and manifest themselves with somewhat predictable regularity. Take the appendix for instance. An organ believed to have aided in the digestion of certain vegetation by regulating certain types of baterial flora in the intestinal tract. Suggesting that at one time, we were "grazing" creatures in the sense that we mostly ate plants that we found in nature. Yet not yet having cultivated them ourselves like the most other mammals. As we rose out of the precondition and learned to cultivate and then to hunt, the use of the appendix became less vital. So much so, that its function today remains speculative. Now, with this gradual change in precondition, came a change in our societal structure. We rose from being nomads to city dwellers.



A pet?! Goodness man! Widge's a sentient being!

:happy_03:

For Heavens sake, man! Have a little respect for those of us on our first cup of coffee......

[Alli]

:happy_03:

For Heavens sake, man! Have a little respect for those of us on our first cup of coffee......
I'm on my third and still going cross-eyed! :food_01:

[Kestrel]

:happy_03:

For Heavens sake, man! Have a little respect for those of us on our first cup of coffee......
:happy_04:
In more ways than one, is Droog ahead of some of us!

[Dora]

:happy_04:
In more ways than one, is Droog ahead of some of us!

Speaking for myself - I'm a day late & a dollar short of most everyone .... :D

[Kestrel]

I like your new av, Dor.

[love_lost]

A pet?! Goodness man! Widge's a sentient being!Of course! That's what makes him such a great pet!

Don't you people have Hanna Barbrra on that side of the pond? Pokemon?

Although, I will say for the record:
Britain’s Widgettadigit Hunt - Absolutely immoral, deplorable, inhumane, & IT SHOULD STOP!!!

[Dora]

I like your new av, Dor.

In honor of the Masters, Kestrel.

I live in a golfing household.....

Plus, I get the giggles every time I look at it! :happy_04:

[love_lost]

Damnit!


Don't you people have Hanna Barbera on that side of the pond?I totally looked that up to make sure I spelled it right, then screwed it up worse trying to fix it.
:mad:

[Kestrel]

Damnit!

I totally looked that up to make sure I spelled it right, then screwed it up worse trying to fix it.
:mad:
:happy_04:
I've done that before.
I hate it when that happens!

[Spelling Nazi]

Yeah, but he’s quick and he found it before I did. “Barber-a” lends itself to funny hairstyle jokes. But his fast typing and keen eyes shaved precious minutes off of his repost time, and he undercut my chance for a pun.

[love_lost]

It's impossible to determine if He can or can't. What we do know is that He did it in one particular way. Omnipotence isn't diminished if one didn't or doesn't do something. It's when it's proven that one can't. Though, to your credit, your question isn't in the same league as "can God create a wall so high that he can't jump over it?" That paradoxical question anthromophizes God. And in doing so becomes a non-sequitur. Since God is omnipresent (and said to be a spirit), the wall would also have to be omnipresent. But of course a wall cannot be omnipresent so the paradoxical question is a pointless exercise in trying to find a limit on God's omnipotence.
Thanks- I was going to include a paragraph mentioning that I wasn’t trying to propose a ‘rock too heavy’-ism, since such arguments have more to do with the limited nature of rocks than any restrictions on God’s omnipotence. But then I got distracted with carefully inserting deliberately misspelled words into my post so that S_N would have a chance to do that wildly clever joke thing she does.

I should have stated that my assumption was that freewill was sufficiently abstract that it didn’t fall into that category of things which can never exist in creation by their nature alone- If only because God seems to exhibit it. Although, after thinking about it, I admit that might be an unjustified assumption… I suppose it could be argued that the simple proposition of man’s freewill itself contraindicates its own existence.

Mostly, I just wanted to be clear on your take on the issue.

(Edited to add: Not saying the 3rd paragraph is your take on it- I was just thinking out loud.)

[love_lost]

Yeah, but he’s quick and he found it before I did. “Barber-a” lends itself to funny hairstyle jokes. But his fast typing and keen eyes shaved precious minutes off of his repost time, and he undercut my chance for a pun.Very clever.

[fuzzi pariah]

Predestination is not a part of salvation? You're going to have to make that case. The verses surrounding Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 firmly plant predestination as a intergral, foundational part of salvation.
How so?

Ephesians 1:4,5 states "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Where is the salvation message here? In the verse before? After?

Let's traipse back to John 1 for a minute..."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

We weren't chosen in Him until we got in Him, and we did not get in Him until we received Him.

Once we received Him, THEN He gave us power to BECOME the sons of God.

Becoming a son of God is not the same as being saved. Being adopted as sons of God is not the same as being saved.

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

We have obtained an inheritance, not salvation.

"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:3-7)

Adoption as 'sons of God' is not salvation in the OT, no one in the OT was 'adopted' nor was any saved saint in the OT a 'son of God'. Salvation in the OT was through faith and by the law. Now, by grace are we saved through faith...it is the gift of God, NOT of works. If we could be saved by 'works', then we would be 'saving' ourselves and think mighty highly of our own deeds. Those of us who are born again, children of God, have not received salvation through our works, but through accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ, as a 'free gift', of grace.

:happy_08:

Adoption takes place after a sinner is saved by grace, through faith.

"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." (Romans 8:23)

Not the redemption of the soul, or the spirit, but the body.


In any event, who is whosoever? More importantly, how does one come to believe?

Explain in detail how one believes.
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:9-17)

One hears from a preacher.

One accepts what is heard, in one's heart.

One believes in the promise of salvation.

One confesses (by mouth).

One is accepted, and 'saved'...born again of the Spirit of God.

It's really quite simple, don't make it so difficult, dear brother.


And you can't use scripture such as, "faith comes by hearing" because the parable of the soils curbs any enthusiasm towards that end.
How so?

[DavesGirl]

How so?

Ephesians 1:4,5 states "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"


Could you explain, please? The above says that some? are predestinated to be included in a group that Jesus adopted? Sorry..I'm trying to understand - but can't quite decipher what you're saying this verse means? It SOUNDS like he chose us to be saved prior to the founding of earth?




Let's traipse back to John 1 for a minute..."But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

This says that As many as received him (were saved) to them He gave the power of salvation?

Then it says even to them that believe on his name. Is there a difference? Or is this two groups of people. Further it say those that were not born of blood or flesh or any will of man...but God's will, that they believe and/or are saved. That just points to predistination to me...saying that those that have received him were not born saved, nor willed (by man) to be saved, but it was God's plan that they be saved?




"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

We have obtained an inheritance, not salvation.

"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:3-7)

Adoption as 'sons of God' is not salvation in the OT, no one in the OT was 'adopted' nor was any saved saint in the OT a 'son of God'. Salvation in the OT was through faith and by the law. Now, by grace are we saved through faith...it is the gift of God, NOT of works. If we could be saved by 'works', then we would be 'saving' ourselves and think mighty highly of our own deeds. Those of us who are born again, children of God, have not received salvation through our works, but through accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ, as a 'free gift', of grace.

But I thought there was no salvation in the OT, until Christ came to die for our sins? I thought that was our salvation...Christ's death. So you're saying that those that died "righteous" (by what standards) just stayed dead until Christ died and then their sins were forgiven?

[Droog]

How so?

Ephesians 1:4,5 states "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

Where is the salvation message here? In the verse before? After?

How does one become Holy and without blame? What does that? The blood of Christ perhaps?

And you didn't answer the question concerning how one believes. For instance, how is it that you believe that God exists? Forget about using scripture to try to explain. I want you to explain how one believes anything at all.

Can you choose to believe say, that your best friend is trustworthy? Or do you just believe that your best friend is. Or is it because your friend has demonstrated their trustworthiness. Or is it that your friend has not given you a reason not to trust?

I want you to explain how humans come to believe in the general sense.

And the parable of the soils clearly tells you that faith does not come by hearing for all who hear. Only 1 of the 4 have faith. It's obvious even without the parable that it's not the case that faith comes by hearing. It's a start, yes. But to quote a Great, "He who has an ear, let him hear."

[Droog]

DavesGirl,

See Hebrews 11 for your answer as to how the OT saints were saved. It's all about having faith in a promise. Jesus's work on the cross is also a promise which one is to have faith in. Faith in God's promise that His work actually removes sin and makes one righteous.

[lamb 'o God]

How does one become Holy and without blame? What does that? The blood of Christ perhaps?

And you didn't answer the question concerning how one believes. For instance, how is it that you believe that God exists? Forget about using scripture to try to explain. I want you to explain how one believes anything at all.

Can you choose to believe say, that your best friend is trustworthy? Or do you just believe that your best friend is. Or is it because your friend has demonstrated their trustworthiness. Or is it that your friend has not given you a reason not to trust?

I want you to explain how humans come to believe in the general sense.

And the parable of the soils clearly tells you that faith does not come by hearing for all who hear. Only 1 of the 4 have faith. It's obvious even without the parable that it's not the case that faith comes by hearing. It's a start, yes. But to quote a Great, "He who has an ear, let him hear."


A better question might be: "how can any of us of our own volition accept Christ...since we are so full of sin to begin with?"

(*Blast~! I wish this convo were going down at my cafe...!) ;)

Blessings,
~lamb

[Synner]

How does one become Holy and without blame? What does that? The blood of Christ perhaps?

And you didn't answer the question concerning how one believes. For instance, how is it that you believe that God exists? Forget about using scripture to try to explain. I want you to explain how one believes anything at all.

Can you choose to believe say, that your best friend is trustworthy? Or do you just believe that your best friend is. Or is it because your friend has demonstrated their trustworthiness. Or is it that your friend has not given you a reason not to trust?

I want you to explain how humans come to believe in the general sense.Man...this really is an interesting question when you dig deep. I wanted to address it the last time you made reference to it, but my time has been pretty limited lately. Let me try to sumarize my thoughts.

There is no such thing as pure belief. In fact, I don't think that there is any such thing as "faith", either. People arrive at "beliefs" and "faith" by weighing information. That makes them decisions. An opinion is defined as belief when the evidence being weighed is inconclusive. An opinion is defined as "faith" when the evidence is squarely against the opinion that a person has arrived at. This is where the tired old "atheists have 'faith' that God doesn't exist" argument fails.

The obvious question is: "What causes people to defy evidence, in favour of an opinion". Answer: The carrot and the stick.

[Droog]

Man...this really is an interesting question when you dig deep. I wanted to address it the last time you made reference to it, but my time has been pretty limited lately. Let me try to sumarize my thoughts.

There is no such thing as pure belief. In fact, I don't think that there is any such thing as "faith", either. People arrive at "beliefs" and "faith" by weighing information. That makes them decisions. An opinion is defined as belief when the evidence being weighed is inconclusive. An opinion is defined as "faith" when the evidence is squarely against the opinion that a person has arrived at. This is where the tired old "atheists have 'faith' that God doesn't exist" argument fails.

The obvious question is: "What causes people to defy evidence, in favour of an opinion". Answer: The carrot and the stick.

Or, another way of terming it; "why do some have confidence in something which has no evidence or precedent to instill confidence?"

The carrot and stick, which is a valid answer, would deem one's faith invalid in Christianity. It becomes a work. One is choosing to follow or as the case may be, is goaded into following, as oppossed to having confidence.

So once one says that they choose God, all they are saying is that they have decided to follow God. The faith then is in one's ability to follow God's wishes and that God will accept their following. But that's paganism defined.

The mystery then reverts back to the original question, redefined: How does one have confidence(faith) in something which has no tangible evidence and no tangible precedent which would instill confidence?

An aside, just to reiterate what Synner already stated, obviously an athiest cannot be said to have confidence that God doesn't exist. By saying that, one would be suggesting that there is tangible, testable evidence of God and tangible precedent of His word and deed.

[Cali/Yank]

Sorry to interupt, but I've left a message for you all at Hate, and rumors section in the "It had to be said" thread... enjoy.