She said she wants to live - Petition to Jeb Bush

[Tuff Mama]

I signed it. You can too.

http://www.petitiononline.com/19461949/petition.html

[WhoAmI]

Nobody takes PetitionOnline.com serious.

[Quiet Creeper]

I signed it. You can too.

http://www.petitiononline.com/19461949/petition.html

Just did,thank you for posting this.

[el_diablo]

why the hell should I sign this?

[Tuff Mama]

why the hell should I sign this?

Then don't. A lot of other people feel our own Constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness might as well be thrown in the toilet if they are allowed to murder her. She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported.

Here's a sample of what's currently on the petition. If after reading it, you're too lazy or unconscious yourself to peck your stumpy little fingers on the petition, that's on you, live with it.

Name Comments Address,Zip Code
2973. JAMES L MCQUEEN Keep her alive Canton, Ohio
2972. Toni Knuth God help us if we let this death happen. 48326
2971. Michele Woods Oakwood, IL 61858
2970. Stacie Bonner Texas
2969. Lauryn Podwats 18042
2968. Linda Barnhart
2967. Luke Pelican
2966. mike burzynski 55432
2965. William Alexander
2964. Delia Watley
2963. blake foster Please let Terri live,her parent's should have the final word in this matter.
2962. Melissa Podwats
2961. Mary S. Chua 14020
2960. William T. Wilson "For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy." James 2:13-A New Bedford, MA 02745
2959. Lou Bear Please consider giving this matter prompt attention. We expect leadership.
2958. Donna Elliott Please. Uphold the tradition that values life.
2957. Donald L. Cranson
2956. Darel Removing her feeding tube is MURDER! Montana
2955. Joe Ricchini Please do not kill Terri 08055
2954. maria Novak we are not god. someone please help terri 60660
2953. Valerie O'Brien Eufaula, OK
2952. Brooke Butler Tannous Save Terri Schiavo! Va
2951. John T. Chua
2950. Megan Leddy
2949. John P Chabot
2948. Robyn Teszler WE don't starve death row prisoners, we don't starve rapists or pedophiles, however we do starve innocent victims whose lives should be held as sacred and meaningful. This woman has a family willing to care for her and an apparant will to live, why deny that to her. I am truly disgusted that in this 21 Century that we could sit and watch a person starve to death...talk about cruel and unusual punishment. This is inexcuseable. 204 Landing Ferry Way, Greer SC 29650
2947. Renee C. PLEASE! SHE'S ALIVE! GIVE TERRI A CHANCE! INSTEAD OF REMOVING THE TUBE, REMOVE HER HUSBAND.
2946. Kathleen Smith PLEASE save Terri!!! Chino Hills, CA 91709
2945. Michael LOpresti
2944. Sarah Lopresti We are all praying for life
2943. Marika Kolb 70637
2942. Jean Smith Terri is being murdered. So many of us are trying to help save her. I got an email from Jeb Bush a couple of weeks ago VOWING to do anything he could to save her. SOMEONE HAS TO DO IT, whether it's him or us. The people are guaranteed Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness under the Constitution. Work, work, keep working on this everybody please!!! 14607
2941. dennis wilson no one should have to starve to death
2940. sharon galbo
2939. tresa khaylon may How can they get away with murder! my mom was in &out of comas due to brain cancer they took the iv and feeding tube away from her and she was starved to death. after coming out 7 times who were they to say that it wouldnt have been 8. I want Terri to live! SHE LOOKS TO ME TO BE VERY MUCH ALIVE . PLEASE CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR HER. IT SICKENS ME TO HEAR THEM CALL THAT MAN HER HUSBAND HE HASNT BEEN THERE THROUGH OUT ALL OF THIS SHE DESEVES TO LIVE AND I PRAY THAT SOMEONE WILL COME FORWARD AND STOP THIS MURDER. I FEEL FOR YOUR CITUATION AND PRAY for her and your family. God bless you! 32257
2938. Teena Fischer

[Soldier 13Fox]

All I know is that if I'm ever in a "persistant vegitative state" and my next of kin are keeping me alive, all you bastards better start a petition to kill me! :D

[Guest4]

Wait a minute..."She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported."

She can talk????..reported by who and where??

[Hobbes]

Too late now...

http://northernvirginia.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D88TPIN00

[WhoAmI]

Then don't. A lot of other people feel our own Constitutional rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness might as well be thrown in the toilet if they are allowed to murder her.She has no life or liberty and no way to pursue happiness. What life does she have? She's as much alive as the bacteria on your mouse, and that's about it. When it comes to being alive and functioning as a human being she is already dead. Liberty is non-existant. Someone else will always dictate how her life is to be ran. Pursuit of happiness? You must be joking - right?

She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported.Surely you can see this is nothing more than a rumor from miles away.


Here's a sample of what's currently on the petition. If after reading it, you're too lazy or unconscious yourself to peck your stumpy little fingers on the petition, that's on you, live with it.
Here's some other stuff on the petition:

2991. Enough is enough. Let her go. Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex. The guardianship court concluded that there was no evidence of a treatment in existence that offered such promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex that she herself would elect to undergo it atthis time.

2984. Pull The Plug Pull The Plug - She's dead already, let her go in peace

2981. Follow her wishes She has no brain stem, let her go.

[clean_slate]

Wait a minute..."She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported."

She can talk????..reported by who and where??

She can't talk.

And who the hell are any of you to try to keep her alive? It's been 15 years, she's not going to suddenly become normal after permanent brain damage.

[WhoAmI]

Wait a minute..."She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported."

She can talk????..reported by who and where??Internet rumor, nothing more.

[Elli]

The parent's are saying this. They have claimed all along that she can talk. The doctor's however have not said this.

[WhoAmI]

The parent's are saying this. They have claimed all along that she can talk. The doctor's however have not said this.Her parents and a dog owner's lawn have two things in common - they're full of shit.

[Elli]

Her parents and a dog owner's lawn have two things in common - they're full of shit.

I'm not going to deny her parents from their side. He has blocked them for the past 8 months from even seeing her and kicked them out right after the tube was taken out today. He's a piece of shit in my eyes.

[Soldier 13Fox]

I can understand and respect parents trying to keep their kid alive, but jumpin jehosafat, when she got married it's no longer up to them.

There is one thing that truly puzzles me about this whole situation. For the most part, those that are fighting to keep her alive can be classified as conservative, religious right. (excuse me for the broad generalization, I hate doing that!) Being the religious right these people believe in heaven. So what is the big deal about letting a women die a NATURAL death.

If somebody keeps me alive due to a feeding tube or a resperator when I should be dead, once I do die I'm going to haunt the SHIT out of them.

:)

[pambo]

God, I pray nothing like this ever happens to me. If I get that way, please keep it out of the media and let my family deal with it in the manner I have instructed them to. (the good ole morphine overdose)

[White Trash Superstar]

God, it would have been easier if her husband had offed her right the first attempt. Let her die already.

[WhoAmI]

I'm not going to deny her parents from their side. He has blocked them for the past 8 months from even seeing her and kicked them out right after the tube was taken out today. He's a piece of shit in my eyes.
Well, I'm sure he's no angel and maybe even had something to do with her condition, but I was mostly referring to her parents' claims that she can talk. Most doctors are trying to determine if she even has any activity in certain parts of her brain at all.

[Catch]

signed thank you for posting the link. it is a shame that the liberal elites want to murder this poor woman. she has a RIGHT TO LIFE and the left wants to take that right to life away just like they take the lives of children every day. it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!

[Soldier 13Fox]

signed thank you for posting the link. it is a shame that the liberal elites want to murder this poor woman. she has a RIGHT TO LIFE and the left wants to take that right to life away just like they take the lives of children every day. it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!
:mad_13:

LOL. If you do believe in god. Did he, himself, create the machine that keeps her alive and shove it down her throat when she would have died a natural death anyways?

[WhoAmI]

signed thank you for posting the link. it is a shame that the liberal elites want to murder this poor woman. she has a RIGHT TO LIFE and the left wants to take that right to life away just like they take the lives of children every day. it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!
The LORD would have taken her life if it wasn't for medical science. If this were 50 years ago it wouldn't be murder, because she would have never lived.

[Elli]

I can understand and respect parents trying to keep their kid alive, but jumpin jehosafat, when she got married it's no longer up to them.

There is one thing that truly puzzles me about this whole situation. For the most part, those that are fighting to keep her alive can be classified as conservative, religious right. (excuse me for the broad generalization, I hate doing that!) Being the religious right these people believe in heaven. So what is the big deal about letting a women die a NATURAL death.

If somebody keeps me alive due to a feeding tube or a resperator when I should be dead, once I do die I'm going to haunt the SHIT out of them.

:)

Soulja, it's more than that. I feel the same way that many do. She should be allowed to die with dignity. I know that the doctor's aren't "killing" her as this is a major public case and if they did that, their careers are over. I said this in another thread, it is a natural death. Yes, she can breathe and her heart functions, but that is about it. Responses of looking at balloons and tracking are NOT signs of life.

BUT if there is any possibility that this woman can survive, she should be given the chance. Reports are that all significant rehab has been withheld from her.

[White Trash Superstar]

:mad_13:

LOL. If you do believe in god. Did he, himself, create the machine that keeps her alive and shove it down her throat when she would have died a natural death anyways?Let me help you out with this one, NO, so let the vegetable die. Is that what you were getting at?

[Soldier 13Fox]

Let me help you out with this one, NO, so let the vegetable die. Is that what you were getting at?
Well . . . not quite in those terms . . .

[Soldier 13Fox]

Soulja, it's more than that. I feel the same way that many do. She should be allowed to die with dignity. I know that the doctor's aren't "killing" her as this is a major public case and if they did that, their careers are over. I said this in another thread, it is a natural death. Yes, she can breathe and her heart functions, but that is about it. Responses of looking at balloons and tracking are NOT signs of life.

BUT if there is any possibility that this woman can survive, she should be given the chance. Reports are that all significant rehab has been withheld from her.

Like I said . . . I can understand and respect what the parents are going through . . . and if this women did have living will stating that she wanted to live artificially for as long as possible, then live she does.

[Elli]

Well, I'm sure he's no angel and maybe even had something to do with her condition, but I was mostly referring to her parents' claims that she can talk. Most doctors are trying to determine if she even has any activity in certain parts of her brain at all.

I agree. That's the problem. You have doctors on both sides arguing something different. You can't let someone just starve to death over the period of two weeks over a "maybe she is or maybe she isn't". If she is, then please, let her die a dignified death out of pain. I personally have a feeling that she should be let go and allowed peace instead of being trapped inside of her body for 15 years. If she was left to nature, she would have died 15 years ago. The doctor's did that to a friend of mine. She should have been dead after a car landed on top of her, but they revived her and she now "lives" lying in a bed being fed, diaper changed and her muscles atrophying for the past 10 years with a grandmother convinced that someday she is going to rise of out that bed and be who she once was.

[Hobbes]

I can understand and respect parents trying to keep their kid alive, but jumpin jehosafat, when she got married it's no longer up to them.

There is one thing that truly puzzles me about this whole situation. For the most part, those that are fighting to keep her alive can be classified as conservative, religious right. (excuse me for the broad generalization, I hate doing that!) Being the religious right these people believe in heaven. So what is the big deal about letting a women die a NATURAL death.

If somebody keeps me alive due to a feeding tube or a resperator when I should be dead, once I do die I'm going to haunt the SHIT out of them.

:)

The list of people I plan to haunt is already pretty long. I'm gonna be one busy ass ghost, for awhile at least!

[Soldier 13Fox]

The list of people I plan to haunt is already pretty long. I'm gonna be one busy ass ghost, for awhile at least!
lol, that is the ultimate revenge . . .

[Elli]

Like I said . . . I can understand and respect what the parents are going through . . . and if this women did have living will stating that she wanted to live artificially for as long as possible, then live she does.

I know. Doc and I talked about this once again tonight. If I were ever to be in her situation, let me go, DO not keep me alive or let anyone keep me alive. I need to put it in writing as first hand experience over my dad with my mom when she was dying and I had to step in.

[Hobbes]

lol, that is the ultimate revenge . . .

Yep. Cut me off in traffic, you get the icy cold hand of death down your shorts... that's the plan.

[el_diablo]

signed thank you for posting the link. it is a shame that the liberal elites want to murder this poor woman. she has a RIGHT TO LIFE and the left wants to take that right to life away just like they take the lives of children every day. it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!
then the government should get the fuck out of it, too.

[WhoAmI]

then the government should get the fuck out of it, too.
But these same people who think it should be up to God to determine whether or not she lives will also be inclined to believe that the Bush administration is nothing short of the second coming.

[Tuff Mama]

Someone just posted this on another board:

Today, 11:36 PM

Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Benalto AB Canada
Posts: 1,092

MED - This is what it is like to starve to death.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Friday, September 03, 2004
Terri's "Exit Protocol" Discovered In Hospice Documents

Cheryl Ford, RN, a nurse from Tampa who has been very active in the efforts to save Terri's life, recently undertook, on behalf of the Schindlers, a review of medical records from when Terri was first admitted to Woodside Hospice. Woodside Hospice is run by Hospice of the Florida Suncoast. It is of interest to note that Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, was a member of the Board of Directors of Hospice of the Florida Suncoast until the Terri Schiavo case began to attract widespread public attention a few years ago.

In her research, Ms. Ford found a document titled "Exit Protocol" in Terri's file. The document is on Hospice of the Florida Suncoast "Patient Care Notes" stationery, and is dated April 19, 2001. This document lays out, in clinical detail, the procedures to be followed in bringing about Terri's death by starvation and dehydration.

I reproduce here, in entirety and verbatim, the contents of this document. It was sent to me in the form of an Adobe PDF document. It is not yet available on the web, but as soon as it becomes available I will post a link to it.

The text of the document is in black type, my comments and explanations will be presented in red type

Exit Protocolxxxxxxxxxxxx00038


Patient Care Notesxxxxxxxxxxxxx The Hospice
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOf The Florida Suncoast

Date

4/19/01xxxxxxxxxxxxxClinical Pharmacy
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxRe: Medication review and symptom management


Pt. is a 37 yo woman in a vegetative state with no apparent signs of distress. Enteral tube-feeding to be discontinued on 4/20/01.

Current Medications:

1. antacid suspension 1-2 tablespoons prn [prn = "as needed"]

2. Naproxen suspension 375 mg Q8* prn MENSTRUAL CRAMPS. [Q8* prn = "every 8 hours as needed". Naproxen is a pain-relieving and anti-inflamatory drug. ]

3. Vitamin liquid daily.

Upon discontinuation of enteral feeding the following signs/symptoms may or may not occur. The following is a brief list of symptoms for which to monitor and recommended interventions.

1. d/c ["discontinue"] antacid. d/c Naproxen suspension.

2. d/c Vitamin liquid

3. Monitor symptoms of PAIN/DISCOMFORT. If noted, medicate with Naproxen rectal suppository 375 mg Q8* prn.

WAIT A MINUTE!!!

George Felos, Michael Schiavo, and all the other advocates of feeding-tube removal have been saying repeatedly that dying by denial of nutrition & hydration is "peaceful" and "painless". They've both said so in interviews and press conferences, such as on Larry King Live. So if dying by denial of nutrition and hydration is, as Michael said, "painless and probably the most natural way to die", then why is medication needed for pain and discomfort?

4. Signs of compromised skin integrity — continue vigilant skin care, provide moistener to lips, consult wound-care specialist if needed.

As the body dehydrates, the skin loses its tone and dries out. Left untreated, this will lead to cracking and bleeding. The lips are even more sensitive in this respect. "Vigilant skin care" is the liberal use of lotions and moisteners to mask these symptoms. The lips must be continually swabbed with special moisteners, and have lip balm applied to them. In the last stages, though, in spite of such measures, skin breakdown often occurs. Because of the body's debilitated state, normal healing mechanisms do not function. Hence the need to consult wound-care specialists to deal with ulcers and open sores.

5. Signs of dehydration
(A) dry lips, mouth. Swab saliva substitute inside mouth prn. (see next page)

After a few days without water, the body stops producing saliva, necessitating the use of a "saliva substitute" to avoid ulceration in the mouth, and a characteristic foul odor on the patient's breath. The cessation of salivation also leads to other complications which appear in the "pulmonary" section.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx00039

Patient Care Notesxxxxxxxxxxxxx The Hospice
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxOf The Florida Suncoast

Date

4/19/01xxxxxxxxxClinical Pharmacy Note — continued

xxxxxxxxxxxxxSigns of dehydration — continued

(B) decreased urinary output - no change in care plan.

While there may be "no change in care plan", one of the effects of dehydration is incontinence. The patient's diapers or "chux" pads will need to be changed more frequently, until such output ceases entirely.

6. Pulmonary
(A) Inability to clear secretions - reposition and swab mouth, consider scopolamine patch behind ear every 3 days.

Dehydration causes the natural mucus secretions of the mouth, nose, and throat to thicken, as the body struggles to protect these delicate membranes. The lack of saliva exacerbates this problem, preventing the normal swallowing of these secretions. These thick deposits can interfere with breathing. The use of the scopolamine patch promotes drying of these secretions, which prevents their build-up, but hastens the breakdown of the tissues.

(B) dyspnea ["difficulty in breathing"] — nebulize low dose 2-5 mg morphine sulfate Q4* prn.

In the last stages of dehydration/starvation, the patient's breathing will become difficult and labored. He or she may even begin gasping for breath, as even the lungs' ability to effect transfer of gases is compromised. Morphine nebulized into a fine spray relaxes bronchial passages and relieves these symptoms. However, because of the resultant decrease in respiratory efficiency, this may hasten death.

7. Multifocal myoclonus or terminal agitation (sometimes caused by electrolyte imbalance). Consider diazepam rectal administration 5-10 mg. May repeat in 4 hours if not resolved then daily - twice daily as needed.

Myoclonus is twitching or spasm of the muscles. Multifocal means "occurring in many different parts of the body". This is usually the result of imbalance in electrolytes, the chemicals, such as salt, potassium, and calcium, which make your bodies internal electrical "batteries" work. Nerve impulses and muscle contractions are governed by electro-chemical reactions utilizing these chemicals. Dehydration causes these chemicals to be out of balance, interfering with normal nerve and muscle function. This can result in nerves and muscles "firing off" uncontrollably, causing spasm. The patient will writhe and become extremely agitated. If you have ever had muscle cramps resulting from strenuous exercise (especially when you have sweat profusely), you have some idea what this feels like. Imagine having this happen all over your body, repeatedly. Diazepam (more commonly known as Valium) is a muscle relaxant

8. Grand Mal seizure, which is highly unlikely given current conditions and lack of contributing factors (meds). Recommend diazepam 15 mg rectally as indicated in seizure management orders.

In the final stages of starvation and dehydration, the same electrolyte imbalances which can cause muscle spasm can also lead to uncontrolled firing of neurons in the brain, according to a similar mechanism. This results in seizures.

Thank you for the opportunity to collaborate regarding this patient's care.

I would observe, in conclusion, that most of the "treatments" described in this Exit Protocol are in fact not directed at easing the patient's true condition, but in masking the symptoms of dying by starvation and dehydration. These treatments are designed to create the appearance of a peaceful "slipping away", when nothing of the sort is happening. The medications hide the fact that the patient undergoes a lengthy and painful deterioration, in which his/her body wastes away cruelly. Remember this the next time you hear or read someone say that Terri should be "allowed" to die.

[Elli]

But these same people who think it should be up to God to determine whether or not she lives will also be inclined to believe that the Bush administration is nothing short of the second coming.

You mean the same people who think the death penalty should be applied to the man who confessed to killing little Jessica Lunsford?

[Soldier 13Fox]

Death isn't ever fun or enjoyable . . .

[Soldier 13Fox]

You mean the same people who think the death penalty should be applied to the man who confessed to killing little Jessica Lunsford?
I want to see that bastard fry . . . .

[Elli]

Someone just posted this on another board:



Sorry Tuff Mama, that could be a forged doc. And I can sit here and make my own interpretations out of that in favor of her being let go.

All I have to do is lead you to the Hospice website and their end of life care sheet and you will see a different viewpoint. She is in Hospice and do you realize that the feds and state don't even let you become a Hospice patient unless you are terminal?

[WhoAmI]

You mean the same people who think the death penalty should be applied to the man who confessed to killing little Jessica Lunsford?
Yes.

[Elli]

I want to see that bastard fry . . . .

I do too. He gives me nightmares. He stole her from her house and from her bedroom. I don't sleep too well these days.

[Soldier 13Fox]

I do too. He gives me nightmares. He stole her from her house and from her bedroom. I don't sleep too well these days.
Yeap, I get pretty chocked up about things like that too . . . and I don't even have kids yet. Ugh . . .

[Bomb Islam]

I would rather be dead if I was in her condition. There is no quality of life. Did she tell her husband she did not want to live like that? If she did, her parents are just being selfish. Why can we euthanize dogs but people have to suffer?

[Soldier 13Fox]

Did she tell her husband she did not want to live like that? If she did, her parents are just being selfish.
From what I remember he claims she did tell him not to keep her alive. . . but there is nothing to prove it.

[WhoAmI]

I would rather be dead if I was in her condition. There is no quality of life. Did she tell her husband she did not want to live like that? If she did, her parents are just being selfish. Why can we euthanize dogs but people have to suffer?
Well, the thing is just telling her husband (if she really did), isn't good enough. He could EASILY be lieing about it, and it's not like she's going to jump out of bed and say otherwise.

[Elli]

From what I remember he claims she did tell him not to keep her alive. . . but there is nothing to prove it.

I've told my husband the same thing. I haven't made out the paperwork yet.

I know Chongo earlier said she is not on life support, but she is as she has a life sustaining feeding tube. Without it, she dies.

[Bomb Islam]

Well, the thing is just telling her husband (if she really did), isn't good enough. He could EASILY be lieing about it, and it's not like she's going to jump out of bed and say otherwise.

Everyone who wants one should sign a DNR, but if her parents thought he had a good relationship with their daughter before the accident, they should have accepted that. As sad as it is for everyone involved, I really think they are being selfish. That being said, he should have taken the million bucks that guy in California offered and let her parents shoulder the burden.

[WhoAmI]

Everyone who wants one should sign a DNR, but if her parents thought he had a good relationship with their daughter before the accident, they should have accepted that. As sad as it is for everyone involved, I really think they are being selfish. That being said, he should have taken the million bucks that guy in California offered and let her parents shoulder the burden.
Him not taking the $1M somewhat leads me to believe his wife's wishes really were to not be kept alive by artificial means. Otherwise, why wouldn't he take it. Maybe he wouldn't if he did something to her that caused this state, but I doubt he'd be too worried at this point about her recovering.

[Elli]

Him not taking the $1M somewhat leads me to believe his wife's wishes really were to not be kept alive by artificial means. Otherwise, why wouldn't he take it. Maybe he wouldn't if he did something to her that caused this state, but I doubt he'd be too worried at this point about her recovering.

He has a $1 M life insurance policy on her. I seriously do think she did not want to be kept alive, and if it was my husband, I would want him to fight for my wishes. The problem is the thin line of is she or isn't she able to recover? Personally, I think not.

[WhoAmI]

He has a $1 M life insurance policy on her. I seriously do think she did not want to be kept alive, and if it was my husband, I would want him to fight for my wishes. The problem is the thin line of is she or isn't she able to recover? Personally, I think not.
He could have had $2 M then. I guess it depends what you define as recover. If you define recover as regaining a fair amount of normal human activities then I'd say it's most unlikely she'd recover. However, some people might consider her drooling and uncontrollably whipping her head around as "recovery," which she has a slight chance of doing.

[Tuff Mama]

Well, I just can't take the time to drag over all the websites and posts and threads showing how rotten Michael has been to her throughout it all...... just type in Terri Schiavo into your browsers and start reading. It's definitely murder.


There have been posts on some of my other boards by and about people who were in as bad a shape as Terri who ultimately fully recovered. He never allowed her therapy. He denied her medicine when she fell ill. Go read the nurse's testimony.

[Sardonic]

It's really none of my business, nor is it any of all of yours. An online petition?

Masturbate yourselves some more.

[Tuff Mama]

It's really none of my business, nor is it any of all of yours. An online petition?

Masturbate yourselves some more.

No, I suppose it's nobody's business if your spouse and a judge decide to kill you. And Terri is in no way entitled to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" that her rehabilitation could have brought. So the Constitution is just a moldy old piece of paper with no relation to reality as we know it. I should have known all along...

The murder of an innocent Daughter of the Republic. No matter for our own safety in the future. We're all going to the Alpo Factory. Oh well....on to the next bling bling...... sigh......

[WhoAmI]

No, I suppose it's nobody's business if your spouse and a judge decide to kill you. And Terri is in no way entitled to "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" that her rehabilitation could have brought. So the Constitution is just a moldy old piece of paper with no relation to reality as we know it. I should have known all along...

The murder of an innocent Daughter of the Republic. No matter for our own safety in the future. We're all going to the Alpo Factory. Oh well....on to the next bling bling...... sigh......She is entitled to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness by the government, but her condition prevents her from having any of the three.

[Tuff Mama]

Not true. She IS still alive. An her liberty is being denied her. And without food or water since 1 pm.

Read this. Someone just posted it on another board:

http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscience/2005/02/michael_schiavo_1.html

[WhoAmI]

Not true. She IS still alive. An her liberty is being denied her. And without food or water since 1 pm.

Read this. Someone just posted it on another board:

http://hyscience.typepad.com/hyscience/2005/02/michael_schiavo_1.html
Bacteria is alive too. Do you consider yourself a murderer when you kill bacteria? The human part of her has died.

[Sardonic]

Tuff Mama, I apologize if I sound harsh. I'm willing to admit that I don't even possess the rudimentary information on the situation that some here do, let alone those in her personal life.

I'm willing to maintain my claim, however, that it is not any of your business. You may view it as a grievous human rights violation, but I do not. If it were, it would entitle and possibly morally oblige you to step in.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness for that woman are over. I am to understand that her cerebral cortex is damaged beyond repair - in fact, the only debate is whether it is completely out of commission or if a partial aspect remains.

In writing this, I feel as though I may have overextended myself. It's ultimately her decision, although she does not have nor will she ever have cognition again.

Thankfully (for those who disagree with me), these are just my opinions and it's none of my business.

P.S. I <3 the constitution.

[Elli]

Well, I just can't take the time to drag over all the websites and posts and threads showing how rotten Michael has been to her throughout it all...... just type in Terri Schiavo into your browsers and start reading. It's definitely murder.


There have been posts on some of my other boards by and about people who were in as bad a shape as Terri who ultimately fully recovered. He never allowed her therapy. He denied her medicine when she fell ill. Go read the nurse's testimony.

I've read many of the sites. It's pure propaganda in order to tug at your heart strings. None of us can make a determination or judgment but those that are closely involved. My husband is a physician and says the same that all of us say. WE aren't there. WE aren't privy to her medical records. WE are all just speculating on media reports and activist groups on both sides.

[Tuff Mama]

Says who? She certainly hasn't said a thing in 15 years... -Rod-

It was reported in a news article today on another board. But I'm just about to turn the computer off and hit the hay, so I'll get it tomorrow.

[Mad_Dog_10]

People, this is FLAT out murder by the state. Wake up, you might be next. I've posted the link on all of my websites and those boards I goto daily.

Call your reps in Congress and stop this NOW !!! Otherwise her blood is on YOUR hands.

[Mad_Dog_10]

Says who? She certainly hasn't said a thing in 15 years... -Rod-

Rod, as much as I respect you, you are wrong. She spoke TODAY and said she wants to live. I don't have the link to it but I know it happened, TODAY !!! It was on the news that she spoke, TODAY!!!

[lotimer]

Rod, as much as I respect you, you are wrong. She spoke TODAY and said she wants to live. I don't have the link to it but I know it happened, TODAY !!! It was on the news that she spoke, TODAY!!!


If that is true then feel free to locate it through http://news.google.com it searches thousands of different news medias. I'll be awaiting a link. :add09:

[Proud American]

:mad_13:

LOL. If you do believe in god. Did he, himself, create the machine that keeps her alive and shove it down her throat when she would have died a natural death anyways?
Exactly if it wasn't for the feeding tube she would have died years ago.

[Mad_Dog_10]

If that is true then feel free to locate it through http://news.google.com it searches thousands of different news medias. I'll be awaiting a link. :add09:

You "search" it. All I know is that the Judge has NOT allowed ANY new film of her SPEAKING for OVER 2, count em, TWO years!!!

[ProudAmerican]

Exactly if it wasn't for the feeding tube she would have died years ago.

Alright point taken. But couldn't you say the same for all. If not for modern technology I would guess that at least 10 % of us wouldn't be here right now. I know I wouldn't.

People say, well God didn't personally make this thing and stick it in your throat. Maybe not, but he did give us our intelligence and the ability to make medical advancements.

My thoughts on this in the past were that she should be allowed to pass away, but IF, and thats a big IF, she did say she wanted to live today, then there is no way in hell that woman should be put down.

If she didn't say the words though, and it was just wishful thinking on the parents part, they need to think of another way of letting this woman go, dying from starvation and dehydration is far worse than anything that went on at Abu Ghraib.

[Desert Dog]

I know. Doc and I talked about this once again tonight. If I were ever to be in her situation, let me go, DO not keep me alive or let anyone keep me alive. I need to put it in writing as first hand experience over my dad with my mom when she was dying and I had to step in.

But being starved to death is not a fun way to go. I say make sure she goes fast. : guess that ain't goin' to happen, however. sure does suck.

[Proud American]

Alright point taken. But couldn't you say the same for all. If not for modern technology I would guess that at least 10 % of us wouldn't be here right now. I know I wouldn't.Very good point PA I didnt think of it that way.


People say, well God didn't personally make this thing and stick it in your throat. Maybe not, but he did give us our intelligence and the ability to make medical advancements.Very true PA.


My thoughts on this in the past were that she should be allowed to pass away,Same here PA I was thinking she should be able to pass peacefully as well, because it sounds like she has no life already, but starving to death is not a peacful passing in my opinion.


but IF, and thats a big IF, she did say she wanted to live today, then there is no way in hell that woman should be put down. I agree totally, but like you said thats IF she said that.


If she didn't say the words though, and it was just wishful thinking on the parents part, they need to think of another way of letting this woman go, dying from starvation and dehydration is far worse than anything that went on at Abu Ghraib.I think she should be able to die if that was her wish, but if it wasnt her wish like Mom & Dad say then no way.

[Eat Me]

Fuck it! Pull the plug. A waste of tax payer money. I hear the lord calling this woman home. Why should we use technology to fuck with god's will.

[clavin42]

Fuck it! Pull the plug. A waste of tax payer money. I hear the lord calling this woman home. Why should we use technology to fuck with god's will.


How do we know it isnt gods will to save this woman? He gave us the curiosity to make the technology that save lives, right?

[WhoAmI]

Rod, as much as I respect you, you are wrong. She spoke TODAY and said she wants to live. I don't have the link to it but I know it happened, TODAY !!! It was on the news that she spoke, TODAY!!!
Did you know they took the word gullible out of the dictionary?

[breeze]

This poor woman will never recover. Let her die in peace.

[Bomb Islam]

Fuck it! Pull the plug. A waste of tax payer money. I hear the lord calling this woman home. Why should we use technology to fuck with god's will.

agreed

[VERITAS]

While decent, rational folks are disgusted by the Repub congressgoobers shameless and ghoulish grandstanding concerning a severely, permanently brain-damaged, vegetative individual being maintained without dignity at public expense, one, in charity, must assume an empathetic motivation predicated upon an undeniably striking identification.

[kjo]

3,240 Signatures Total -not bad-

Thanks for posting this, I signed it.

[Tuff Mama]

It was reported in a news article today on another board. But I'm just about to turn the computer off and hit the hay, so I'll get it tomorrow.

Yesterday, 08:50 PM

Veteran Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,099

CRIME - Lawyer: "Terri Schiavo Says She Wants to Live!"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TERRI SCHIAVO SAYS SHE WANTS TO LIVE!
By The Empire Journal


For more than 10 years, Michael Schiavo has said that his neurologically impaired wife, Terri Schinder-Schiavo would not want to be kept alive by artificial life support.

On Friday afternoon, less than a hour after probate court judge George W. Greer ignored federal subpoenas and ordered that Michael Schiavo remove the feeding tube from Terri which will cause her death by starvation, Terri Schiavo before multiple witnesses indicated that she wanted to live.

According to attorney Barbara Weller, one of the attorneys representing Terri’s parents, Mary and Bob Schindler Sr., when her parents and attorneys visited Terri at the Woodside Hospice where she resides to tell her they were going to remove her feeding tube, Terri began to cry and tried to say “I want to live.”

Attorney Weller said she had a difficult time calming Terri down.

Greer, Schiavo and his attorney, George Felos, have consistently maintained that Terri is in a persistent vegetative state and is not cognizant or alert.

The actions by Terri Friday afternoon clearly indicate that that is not true.

Earlier federal marshals had served Terri and other principals in the case with federal subpoenas to appear before a Congressional committee on March 28 to testify in the case. However, Greer refused to honor the federal subpoenas and ordered that his death order be executed immediately, withdrawing her nutrition and hydration.

Terri, 41, sustained serious brain damage in 1990 under mysterious circumstances. After her husband, Michael received some $2 million in insurance money, after telling a jury under oath that he would take care of Terri “for the rest of my life”, he then ordered that she not be provided any therapy or rehabilitative services and petitioned the court for her death.

She left no living will. After receiving the money, Michael Schiavo suddenly remembered that she had stated previously that she would not want to be kept alive by artificial means.

Congress was continuing to work to find a resolution to keep Terri alive. Terri supporters were being asked to surround the hospice in protest of Judge Greer’s ruling to override the federal subpoena and cause her death.

Greer has refused to allow independent counsel to represent Terri and has himself acted in the prohibited dual role of judge and guardian ad litem. Although Florida Statutes require that as guardian he personally visit the ward, Greer has NEVER personally visited Terri Schiavo and has never attempted to ask her himself if she wants to live.

Those who cannot go to Florida are asked to call their U.S. senators.

This story continues. For updates, continue to visit www.theempirejournal.com


http://www.theempirejournal.com/031..._says_she_w.htm



Also at the above site is this poll.....

Should The DOJ Call For A Federal Investigation Into Alleged Corruption of Government Officials Involved In The Schindler-Schiavo Case?

[knightroar]

Total bullshit, and shame on you for believing it.


omg, I hope this isn't a trend. I agree with Rod.

[WhoAmI]

According to attorney Barbara Weller, one of the attorneys representing Terri’s parents, Mary and Bob Schindler Sr., when her parents and attorneys visited Terri at the Woodside Hospice where she resides to tell her they were going to remove her feeding tube, Terri began to cry and tried to say “I want to live.”

Also, there's this gem on that website


When asked by her parents and their attorneys if she wanted to live, Terri Schiavo made two conscious attempts to say “Yeah” and began to cry when told that her husband, Michael Schiavo, would be removing her feeding tube on orders of Judge Greer, which would result in her death by starvation.

I think anyone who actually believes this shit should probably see their own doctor to check for signs of brain damage. First of all, and this should be very apparent to even the thickest skulled of you, why is that only some no-name, random internet site has this information? If she was really talking why isn't this on CNN?

Second of all, most doctors are debating as to whether there's any function at all in parts of her brain. If doctors are debating if activity even exists you can sure as hell bet she doesn't have the capacity to speak in English.

Third, how the hell do they know what she was "attempting" or "trying" to speak. Let's look at this:



PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE STATE

This term is commonly, but incorrectly, referred to as "brain-death." It can follow a coma.
People in a persistent vegetative state cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings. They may have noncognitive functions and breathing and circulation may remain relatively intact.

They also might move spontaneously and even grimace, cry or laugh. Some people might regain some awareness after being in a persistent vegetative state but others might remain in the state for decades.

Source: National Institutes of HealthSo, I guess at best she might be able to randomly make some noises or move some limbs - a far cry from being able to even attempt to speak coherently to the point where people could try to figure out what she actually said. Additionally, if she's probably not even aware of her surroundings to the extent that she doesn't know who people are and such you can damn well believe that she doesn't know about the decision that faces her (pulling the tube).

It's really sad that some people believe this shit posted on the internet. I can't believe people assume that because it's posted on the internet and fits their views it must be true.

[Sardonic]

I doubt very highly that she spoke. If she did, then obviously her will takes precedent over everyone else's.

But it sounds like such bullshit. If she *SAID* she wants to live then why is there even a discussion? The discussion is taking place because she has not spoken for 15 years.

[Sardonic]

Also, she doesn't have cognition. Her cerebral cortex is basically disintegrated.

Why you gotta lie to me?

[Sardonic]

People, this is FLAT out murder by the state. Wake up, you might be next. I've posted the link on all of my websites and those boards I goto daily.

Call your reps in Congress and stop this NOW !!! Otherwise her blood is on YOUR hands.


Rod, as much as I respect you, you are wrong. She spoke TODAY and said she wants to live. I don't have the link to it but I know it happened, TODAY !!! It was on the news that she spoke, TODAY!!!


Dude, you are out of it. If she spoke, there wouldn't be any discussion, would there?

Edit: In high school, there was this mormon girl who I always had friendly arguments with. Once she told me, verbatim, "Evolution isn't true, I saw it on the news!"

Ever since then I can't respect people who phrase their arguments that way. *laughs*

[Tuff Mama]

Today, 03:39 PM

Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The hills of southern IL
Posts: 2,245

http://www.rense.com/general63/retiredsheriffspeaks.htm

An Open Letter To
'We the People of the
United States of America'
By John J McDougall
Retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida
3-19-5


Imagine for a moment that you are a Circuit Court Judge. A terrified woman comes before your Court pleading for her life. She testifies, under oath, that her violent and demented husband raped her, set her clothes on fire and threatens to kill her. She needs your help and petitions your court for an Injunction for Protection. What would you do? Well, this is what a real Circuit Court Judge of the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court of Florida; by the name of Judge George W. Greer decided.

He actually had this exact case come before his bench seven years ago, when Helene Ball McGee, from Dunedin Florida pleaded with him to grant her an Injunction for Protection. Helene was in absolute fear for her life. Judge George W. Greer, however, refused to help her, because (according to him) she had not shown him ìenough proofî that her husband was physically violent yet. Two weeks later her deranged husband, Bobby Lane McGee, stabbed her to death. Perhaps if Bobby lane McGee, had raped Judge Greer first, he would have had a much better insight into the physically violent nature of her husband.

Now this same gender-biased Judge, with utter disdain for women, is the same Judge in charge of the Terri Schindler Schiavo Case. True to form, this Judge continues to ignore the Constitutional rights of Due Process for Terri Schindler Schiavo, in much the same way he did to Helene Ball McGee, who was violently murdered seven years ago this month. Terri who is physically disabled, has trouble swallowing food on her own and because of this Judge Greer has seen fit to order her feeding tube removed. Her Court appointed 'Guardian' husband who has since abandoned her for another woman, (with whom he has fathered two children) wants her dead and has asked Judge Greer's permission to use hundreds of thousands of dollars from her Medical Trust Fund Money to pay his blood-sucking lawyers to find a way to make this happen.

It worked. Judge George W. Greer has now ignored her parents plea for help and has ordered Terri's execution by starvation and dehydration to begin on March 18, 2005. This cruel, torturous, and horrifying death of yet another woman before his Court will take up to 10 days of horrific suffering to cause her to die. But Judge Greer is not without mercy, no sir; he will allow her parents permission to stay and watch their daughter starve to death.

What is wrong with this picture? Is this the same United States of America, whose US Supreme Court is inscribed with the words, 'Equal Justice under law.' While Terri starves and cries out for justice; our distinguished Supreme Court Justices will be too busy to hear, because they will be deciding how best to abolish those embarrassing 'Ten Commandments' of which, the Fifth Commandment is, 'Thou shall not kill.'

God help us. Every person of conscience in this Country should be ready to travel to the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court House, in Pinellas County Florida, and scream at the top of their lungs, that this is Murder! This is Murder! This is Murder!

John J McDougall, retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida.

[WhoAmI]

Today, 03:39 PM

Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The hills of southern IL
Posts: 2,245

http://www.rense.com/general63/retiredsheriffspeaks.htm

An Open Letter To
'We the People of the
United States of America'
By John J McDougall
Retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida
3-19-5


Imagine for a moment that you are a Circuit Court Judge. A terrified woman comes before your Court pleading for her life. She testifies, under oath, that her violent and demented husband raped her, set her clothes on fire and threatens to kill her. She needs your help and petitions your court for an Injunction for Protection. What would you do? Well, this is what a real Circuit Court Judge of the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court of Florida; by the name of Judge George W. Greer decided.

He actually had this exact case come before his bench seven years ago, when Helene Ball McGee, from Dunedin Florida pleaded with him to grant her an Injunction for Protection. Helene was in absolute fear for her life. Judge George W. Greer, however, refused to help her, because (according to him) she had not shown him ìenough proofî that her husband was physically violent yet. Two weeks later her deranged husband, Bobby Lane McGee, stabbed her to death. Perhaps if Bobby lane McGee, had raped Judge Greer first, he would have had a much better insight into the physically violent nature of her husband.

Now this same gender-biased Judge, with utter disdain for women, is the same Judge in charge of the Terri Schindler Schiavo Case. True to form, this Judge continues to ignore the Constitutional rights of Due Process for Terri Schindler Schiavo, in much the same way he did to Helene Ball McGee, who was violently murdered seven years ago this month. Terri who is physically disabled, has trouble swallowing food on her own and because of this Judge Greer has seen fit to order her feeding tube removed. Her Court appointed 'Guardian' husband who has since abandoned her for another woman, (with whom he has fathered two children) wants her dead and has asked Judge Greer's permission to use hundreds of thousands of dollars from her Medical Trust Fund Money to pay his blood-sucking lawyers to find a way to make this happen.

It worked. Judge George W. Greer has now ignored her parents plea for help and has ordered Terri's execution by starvation and dehydration to begin on March 18, 2005. This cruel, torturous, and horrifying death of yet another woman before his Court will take up to 10 days of horrific suffering to cause her to die. But Judge Greer is not without mercy, no sir; he will allow her parents permission to stay and watch their daughter starve to death.

What is wrong with this picture? Is this the same United States of America, whose US Supreme Court is inscribed with the words, 'Equal Justice under law.' While Terri starves and cries out for justice; our distinguished Supreme Court Justices will be too busy to hear, because they will be deciding how best to abolish those embarrassing 'Ten Commandments' of which, the Fifth Commandment is, 'Thou shall not kill.'

God help us. Every person of conscience in this Country should be ready to travel to the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court House, in Pinellas County Florida, and scream at the top of their lungs, that this is Murder! This is Murder! This is Murder!

John J McDougall, retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida.Why don't you travel to that court house and go scream "this is murder?"

Also, she probably won't even know she's starving to death. When you're brain dead you probably aren't aware of things such as hunger. Furthermore, what is 10 days of "suffering" after she has been through 15 YEARS of it already because her selfish parents don't know when to let go?

At least you've given up on the "she said she wants to live" garbage.

[WhoAmI]

What I want to know is why she is getting so much attention. She is a complete nobody who is getting more attention than 10 dead marines who are fighting for our country get. Also, these kind of decisions are made all the time, there's nothing really special about her case.

[Ono]

Congress Announces Deal in Schiavo Case

37 minutes ago Top Stories - AP
By SIOBHAN McDONOUGH, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Congressional leaders hoped a deal reached Saturday would clear the way for a brain-damaged woman to resume being fed while a federal court reviews the right-to-die battle between her parents and her husband.


"We think we have found a solution" to the Terri Schiavo case, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, said at a Capitol Hill news conference.


"We are confident this compromise addresses everyone's concerns, we are confident it will provide Mrs. Schiavo a clear and appropriate avenue for appeal in federal court, and most importantly, we are confident this compromise will restore nutrition and hydration to Mrs. Schiavo as long as that appeal endures," he said.


Final approval was hoped for Sunday when the House planned to meet in a special session, he said. The Senate intended to meet Saturday evening on the matter.


President Bush was expected to sign the bill as soon as it gets to him.


A White House spokesman, Jeanie Mamo, said the president, who was at his Texas ranch "was supportive of the efforts by congressional leaders. We remain in contact with Congress and the president is being kept apprised."


The compromise was similar to a Senate bill passed Thursday that would let a federal court review the state judge's decision in the Schiavo case. House Republicans had favored broader legislation that applied similar cases that questioned the legality of withholding food or medical treatment from people who are incapacitated.


Schiavo's feeding tube was disconnected Friday afternoon. Schiavo, 41, could linger for one to two weeks if no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted.


GOP Rep. James Sensenbrenner of Wisconsin, chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said the measure was "narrowly targeted" and did not set a precedent.


For a decade, a feud has raged between Schiavo's husband, Michael, and her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, who have tried to oust Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.


Michael Schiavo says his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, saying she could get better and that their daughter has laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices.


On Friday, Republicans used their subpoena power to demand that Schiavo be brought before a congressional hearing, with lawmakers saying that removing the tube amounted to "barbarism."


The Florida judge presiding over the case rejected the request from House lawyers to delay the tube's removal. Late Friday, the U.S. Supreme Court (news - web sites), without comment, denied an emergency request from the House committee that issued the subpoenas to reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube while the committee filed appeals in the lower courts to have its subpoenas recognized.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20050319/ap_on_go_co/brain_damaged_woman_congress_6

[zapcomix]

The reason the courts ruled/upheld the husband's wishes is because it was shown/proven that Terri herself had made it clear, she did not want to be kept alive in the event of incapacity. True, she did not have a living will, but enough was presented to the courts for them to rule in favor of her request.

Personally, if I was in her shape, especially if my mind was still functioning, I would want to end it way before we got to this point...15 years...fuck. My mother's sister, a registered nurse, 2 years ago, at the age of 79, suffered a stroke. She was bed-ridden unable to feed herself, talk and was barely able to write. She struggled to write a message to my brother while he was visting her, asking him to end it, to pull the plug. He was blown away.

We went to her funeral in Nov. of last year. She finally got her wish.

[pilobolus]

What I want to know is why she is getting so much attention. She is a complete nobody who is getting more attention than 10 dead marines who are fighting for our country get. Also, these kind of decisions are made all the time, there's nothing really special about her case.

15 years and almost as many court decisions on this case...all of them supporting the husband's contention that she would not have wanted to live....and NOW congress gets involved. Lead, no less, by the party that constantly berates us all about state's rights.

[clean_slate]

Am I the only one who is sickened that the US Congress is wasting its time with this crap?

[Elli]

Am I the only one who is sickened that the US Congress is wasting its time with this crap?

That and I am sickened that this woman is being used for political agenda's on both sides of the aisle. Pull the tube, put it back in, pull it, put it back in. Enough already! Either let her live or die, but don't abuse her in this fashion!

[kjo]

That and I am sickened that this woman is being used for political agenda's on both sides of the aisle. Pull the tube, put it back in, pull it, put it back in. Enough already! Either let her live or die, but don't abuse her in this fashion!
Amen sista :)

[WhoAmI]

Am I the only one who is sickened that the US Congress is wasting its time with this crap?
I'm sure many people are sickened by it, but there's a lot of sickening things in politics and this doesn't really come as that big of a surprise.

[zapcomix]

Am I the only one who is sickened that the US Congress is wasting its time with this crap?
No, politicalizing this is wrong. Is Congress going to get involved in every similar situation? This is personal, not public.

[clean_slate]

No, politicalizing this is wrong. Is Congress going to get involved in every similar situation? This is personal, not public.

God, I sure as hell hope they don't. Unfortunately, the "small government" Republicans seem to want to inject their views into Americans' lives.

[Loopy]

God, I sure as hell hope they don't. Unfortunately, the "small government" Republicans seem to want to inject their views into Americans' lives.

Couldn't have said it better.

[zapcomix]

God, I sure as hell hope they don't. Unfortunately, the "small government" Republicans seem to want to inject their views into Americans' lives.
Like I said, politicalizing this is wrong. Whether Republican or Democrat, political interference is wrong.

[Tuff Mama]

Today, 05:50 PM

NeverAccept QuestionAll
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Posts: 786

Death by Dehydration: The Terri Schindler-Schiavo Case

Michael Arnold Glueck and Robert J. Cihak
Wednesday, Oct. 29, 2003

Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., is a multiple-award-winning writer who comments on medical-legal issues. Robert J. Cihak, M.D., is a past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art...28/235740.shtml

The Terri Schindler-Schiavo case is not a "death with dignity" issue.

So says Jane M. Orient, M.D., executive director of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS), who issued this statement in response to the emergency action of the Florida legislature to reinstate feeding and hydration of Terri Schindler-Schiavo:

"Terri Schindler-Schiavo has won a temporary stay from execution by a method too cruel to be used for convicted criminals. And yet her husband's attorney is trying to spin it into a 'death with dignity issue' with his comments on Tuesday last week."

Her husband says it's cruel to begin rehydration. The opposite is true - dehydration is a cruel, painful death. It is unconscionable that the state ordered removal of her feeding tube in the first place – it's nothing less than state-sponsored euthanasia.

Terri is not dependent on advanced medical interventions. Nothing is mechanically pumping her blood, or forcing oxygen into her lungs. She is simply being fed through a gastrostomy tube. This is not an extreme or extraordinary means of life support. Would we allow a retarded child to be starved to death?

Some physicians believe that Terri could be rehabilitated to some extent, at least so that she could swallow oral feedings and eliminate the need for the tube. She should be allowed to try, but so far her husband has blocked every attempt to see whether she can swallow. Doctors have offered pro bono treatment, if money is the barrier for her husband.

Although severely disabled, some believe that Terri does have the capacity to communicate a desire to live. Her husband has obstructed efforts at rehabilitation or independent assessments of his wife's true state. This does not mean we should be without compassion and concern for her husband, who has also suffered immensely.

Notes Dr. Orient, "Where are the 'compassionate end-of-life' groups such as the Robert Wood Johnson 'Last Acts' initiative, and why aren't they weighing in on this?"

The ethical question for her nurses and physicians – prior to the Jeb Bush "reprieve" – was whether they would cooperate in carrying out a death warrant. And the ethical question for all of us is whether we will allow the state courts to obstruct the efforts of people who want to provide the minimum of medical care to a patient who should receive it.

If we go down that path, who's to say what treatment the state will prevent you from getting?

And ultimately, looking to the future, would it not be far better for the courts, legislatures, governors and lawyers to stay out of medical care and leave the difficult decisions to those trained in the health-care professions and to their patients?

* * * * * *

Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., is a multiple-award-winning writer who comments on medical-legal issues. Robert J. Cihak, M.D., is a past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.

Contact Drs. Glueck and Cihak by e-mail.
http://www.newsmax.com/emailform.sh...k%20and%20Cihak

[WhoAmI]

"Terri Schindler-Schiavo has won a temporary stay from execution by a method too cruel to be used for convicted criminals. And yet her husband's attorney is trying to spin it into a 'death with dignity issue' with his comments on Tuesday last week."It's not used on convicted criminals because they're not brain dead. What a coincidence!


Her husband says it's cruel to begin rehydration. The opposite is true - dehydration is a cruel, painful death. It is unconscionable that the state ordered removal of her feeding tube in the first place – it's nothing less than state-sponsored euthanasia.Yes, dehydration is a cruel, painful way to go - if you know what's happening to you. She doesn't.


Terri is not dependent on advanced medical interventions. Nothing is mechanically pumping her blood, or forcing oxygen into her lungs. She is simply being fed through a gastrostomy tube. This is not an extreme or extraordinary means of life support. Would we allow a retarded child to be starved to death?A retarded child is VASTLY more aware of his surroundings than she is. A very poor comparison at best.


Some physicians believe that Terri could be rehabilitated to some extent, at least so that she could swallow oral feedings and eliminate the need for the tube. She should be allowed to try, but so far her husband has blocked every attempt to see whether she can swallow. Doctors have offered pro bono treatment, if money is the barrier for her husband.Rehabilitation? Please. I'd hardly consider being able to eliminate the tube as rehabilitation. The author of this article is dodging the point here - her brain deadness, not the tube.


Although severely disabled, some believe that Terri does have the capacity to communicate a desire to live. Her husband has obstructed efforts at rehabilitation or independent assessments of his wife's true state. This does not mean we should be without compassion and concern for her husband, who has also suffered immensely.Some people also believe Jesus was going to come after Haley's comet.


The ethical question for her nurses and physicians – prior to the Jeb Bush "reprieve" – was whether they would cooperate in carrying out a death warrant. And the ethical question for all of us is whether we will allow the state courts to obstruct the efforts of people who want to provide the minimum of medical care to a patient who should receive it.These kinds of decisions are made all the time.


If we go down that path, who's to say what treatment the state will prevent you from getting?If you're brain dead and have been so for 15 years there's a pretty good chance you're going to remain that way for the next 15 years, and the 15 years after that. You're not going to be denied treatment. A pathetic attempt at a scare tactic, at least the liberals do it effectively.


And ultimately, looking to the future, would it not be far better for the courts, legislatures, governors and lawyers to stay out of medical care and leave the difficult decisions to those trained in the health-care professions and to their patients?That's interesting someone who is for keeping her "alive" mentions that, since his buddies ARE getting the government involved.

[Pghredneck]

I haven’t read through any of the threads on this subject and apologize if these points have been made previously. My thoughts on the matter are:

a) If a person has clearly stated that they wish for no artificial means to be employed to sustain them should they enter into a vegetative state, their wishes should be honored.

b) If their intentions cannot be clearly established, then society should err on the side of life.

In the case being discussed, Mrs. Schiavo’s wishes cannot be clearly established. Furthermore, indications exist which would lead one to conclude that her husband might have incentives to be less than earnest in his representation of her wishes. For these reasons, the tube should be reconnected…

[WhoAmI]

I haven’t read through any of the threads on this subject and apologize if these points have been made previously. My thoughts on the matter are:

a) If a person has clearly stated that they wish for no artificial means to be employed to sustain them should they enter into a vegetative state, their wishes should be honored.

b) If their intentions cannot be clearly established, then society should err on the side of life.

In the case being discussed, Mrs. Schiavo’s wishes cannot be clearly established. Furthermore, indications exist which would lead one to conclude that her husband might have incentives to be less than earnest in his representation of her wishes. For these reasons, the tube should be reconnected…
The question is though, is she really alive? There's no debate that she's alive in the same sense that bacteria and such are alive. But, is she alive as a human or has that part already died?

[Pghredneck]

The question is though, is she really alive? There's no debate that she's alive in the same sense that bacteria and such are alive. But, is she alive as a human or has that part already died? An can answer for your question could be derived using current medical diagnostics and definitions. Chances are that whatever opinion was arrived at would not be unanimous. So, who do you believe? At a future time, the majority of medical practitioners using the then prevailing methods might render a different answer which was also opposed by the other “experts” of their time. Again, who is right?

[WhoAmI]

An can answer for your question could be derived using current medical diagnostics and definitions. Chances are that whatever opinion was arrived at would not be unanimous. So, who do you believe? At a future time, the majority of medical practitioners using the then prevailing methods might render a different answer which was also opposed by the other “experts” of their time. Again, who is right?
Each side believes they are right and it doesn't get any further than that.

[Tuff Mama]

Today, 07:58 PM

Contributing Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 312

CRIME - Terri - see video and decide

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I know some people who are keeping really hopeless family alive, one in particular who hasn't had any response to outsiders in over 30 years.

Not so with Terri. That's not what we call brain dead. And the afidavit of her nurse demonstrates that there is cause to believe she is responsive, not "being posed" by her parents.

OK, here's the video. See what you think.

http://web.tampabay.rr.com/ccb/videos/hows_that_cold.rm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Pghredneck]

Each side believes they are right and it doesn't get any further than that.Exactly! There's no definitive way to arrive at an answer…just opinions. Given that, I’d prefer to honor the wishes of the affected individual. Now, the next question is, should they wish to remain on life support and the family lacks the financial resources to pay for it, “who should foot the bill?”. The answer to that one is not as clear to me…

[VERITAS]

That and I am sickened that this woman is being used for political agenda's on both sides of the aisle.


"Both sides of the aisle?" Good one!

Republickers are always so willing to share!

:love_04:

[WhoAmI]

Exactly! There's no definitive way to arrive at an answer…just opinions. Given that, I’d prefer to honor the wishes of the affected individual. Now, the next question is, should they wish to remain on life support and the family lacks the financial resources to pay for it, “who should foot the bill?”. The answer to that one is not as clear to me…
Well then it should be ultimately up to the taxpayers, but we all know by now decisions that should be made by the taxpayers are not. I would say that the money could be spent much better elsewhere than on someone who is already dead, perhaps on some child who was born with a disease and needs some kind of treatment but can have a mostly normal life. However, others would parade around calling it murder. Ultimately you can't ever get anywhere with this topic.

It would probably end up in Congress as an all-incusive bill that will either pull the plug for everyone or keep them on it til "natural" death.

[WhoAmI]

"Both sides of the aisle?" Good one!

Republickers are always so willing to share!

:love_04:Democrats HAVE to give in and support such a bill if they are going to try to appeal to the values crowd for the 2008 election.

[pambo]

Today, 03:39 PM

Veteran Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: The hills of southern IL
Posts: 2,245

http://www.rense.com/general63/retiredsheriffspeaks.htm

An Open Letter To
'We the People of the
United States of America'
By John J McDougall
Retired Florida Sheriff of Lee County Florida
3-19-5


Imagine for a moment that you are a Circuit Court Judge. A terrified woman comes before your Court pleading for her life. She testifies, under oath, that her violent and demented husband raped her, set her clothes on fire and threatens to kill her. She needs your help and petitions your court for an Injunction for Protection. What would you do? Well, this is what a real Circuit Court Judge of the Sixth Judicial Circuit Court of Florida; by the name of Judge George W. Greer decided.



It sounds like this woman didn't prepare her case well enough. The injunction was denied because she failed to present enough proof, such as medical evidence of rape, supporting testimony etc. I am all FOR women being able get protection from the judicial system, but not all of them know how to go about it. Testifying under oath, unfortunately, isn't enough for a judge to make that determination.

It's not fair to blame him

[Pghredneck]

Well then it should be ultimately up to the taxpayers, but we all know by now decisions that should be made by the taxpayers are not. I would say that the money could be spent much better elsewhere than on someone who is already dead, perhaps on some child who was born with a disease and needs some kind of treatment but can have a mostly normal life. However, others would parade around calling it murder. Ultimately you can't ever get anywhere with this topic.

It would probably end up in Congress as an all-incusive bill that will either pull the plug for everyone or keep them on it til "natural" death. I hear ya and understand that the application of “public funds“ needs to be prioritized. Let’s get a bit more precise and say that, in the case of a person such as Ms Shiavo, the government should neither mandate that her tube be removed nor be held responsible for paying her medical bills. As such, those who feel strongly about the plight of folks in her situation would have the opportunity to take action. Should no one step forward, the government would be under no further obligation to provide funding for treatment AND the facility treating her could arrive at their own decision on what to do. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on this approach…

[WhoAmI]

I hear ya and understand that the application of “public funds“ needs to be prioritized. Let’s get a bit more precise and say that, in the case of a person such as Ms Shiavo, the government should neither mandate that her tube be removed nor be held responsible for paying her medical bills. As such, those who feel strongly about the plight of folks in her situation would have the opportunity to take action. Should no one step forward, the government would be under no further obligation to provide funding for treatment AND the facility treating her could arrive at their own decision on what to do. I’d like to hear everyone’s thoughts on this approach…
I agree completely. If someone wants to spend their money to keep someone in a permanent vegatative state and that's the will of the patient then that's fine.

[Loopy]

Exactly! There's no definitive way to arrive at an answer…just opinions. Given that, I’d prefer to honor the wishes of the affected individual. Now, the next question is, should they wish to remain on life support and the family lacks the financial resources to pay for it, “who should foot the bill?”. The answer to that one is not as clear to me…
Guess who, Redneck.

What, are you turning Socialist?

[WhoAmI]

Bad idea. You've now given facilities the right to determine treatment (or a lack thereof) based on cost. You've given them the right to end life based on cost when it should be based on her wishes. If the courts find (and they keep doing so) that Schiavo did not want to live, then that should be the end of it. None of the whiners are laying in that bed, nor is Congress, and neither am I. -Rod-
Don't you think money can be better spent elsewhere?

[Loopy]

Should the State in question have the decision or should the Federal Government, you idiots?

One or the other.

fucking wake up.

[Pghredneck]

Guess who, Redneck.

What, are you turning Socialist?Interesting observation. It’s true! I was sitting around the other day and decided to become a commie. Nothing to do with ideology though. I was just in a rut and looking for a change of pace. What weighed heavily in my decision were the following facts:

a) Under a purely socialist system, the government would proclaim this women as having a right to treatment and be willing to deliver it after she had already died. Some might argue that false expectations were set but why concern oneself with such minutiae?

b) On the other hand, under a purely capitalist system, her family would get a few bids from parties interested in providing services. Then they could sign their house over to the provider with the lowest bid.

The thought never occurred to me that our system is a bit more hybrid in nature than either of the above.

Anyway, I think that my comments, if carefully digested, might indicate more of a libertarian leaning on my part but I’ll let you be the final judge of that Carl.

PS: Could you ask/tell the President to develop a rational immigration party? If he balks, you can tell him that my annual $50 RNC contribution will not be sent. That might sway him...

[WhoAmI]

Should the State in question have the decision or should the Federal Government, you idiots?

One or the other.

fucking wake up.
Maybe it doesn't matter because it's the same thing? Either way, taxpayers pay.

[clean_slate]

Maybe it doesn't matter because it's the same thing? Either way, taxpayers pay.

Um, the federal government and state governments aren't even close to the same thing. I think the least of your worries is a few hundred bucks a day spent on this woman. That being said, pull the damn tube and let her die peacefully.

[Tomahawk]

Um, the federal government and state governments aren't even close to the same thing. I think the least of your worries is a few hundred bucks a day spent on this woman. That being said, pull the damn tube and let her die peacefully. Starving to death isn't peacful.

[VERITAS]

http://signs-of-the-times.org/images/boygeorge.gif

The repub whackos now have Junior tear-assin' back to DC to prevent an evanescing shred of dignity remaining attached to this poor woman's physical demise.

It is reassuring that, elsewhere, decent folks overwhelmingly prevail:

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ACBschiavo.GIF (http://www.pollingreport.com/news.htm)

[WhoAmI]

Starving to death isn't peacful.
Nor is shitting yourself every day for 15 years.

[Tuff Mama]

He's a sham husband. He has another wife and two kids. He only wants Terri dead.

[Soldier 13Fox]

http://signs-of-the-times.org/images/boygeorge.gif

The repub whackos now have Junior tear-assin' back to DC to prevent an evanescing shred of dignity remaining attached to this poor woman's physical demise.

It is reassuring that, elsewhere, decent folks overwhelmingly prevail:

http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ACBschiavo.GIF (http://www.pollingreport.com/news.htm)
But, if the parents never put up a stink about it, you wouldn't see any government action on this. So don't try to pin on this on Bush.

[WhoAmI]

Um, the federal government and state governments aren't even close to the same thing. I think the least of your worries is a few hundred bucks a day spent on this woman. That being said, pull the damn tube and let her die peacefully.
Of course they're different, but that doesn't matter. Either way the government is getting involved in something it shouldn't.

That's $73,000/yr if it costs $200/day to take care of her. That could send 3 people to college per year.

[WhoAmI]

He's a sham husband. He has another wife and two kids. He only wants Terri dead.
If he just wanted to get rid of her why didn't he accept that $1M from that guy, go have fun with his other wife, and let her remain a vegetable for the next 40 years?

[zapcomix]

Should the State in question have the decision or should the Federal Government, you idiots? One or the other. fucking wake up.
You knuckle-head, neither... this is a perfect example of personal/private rights. If I decide to end my life in my own way, that's my business, no one elses, especially the governments. That's what wills are for and personal beliefs/wishes expressed to family members. Besides birth, death is the most personal experience we experience, we only go through it once. You better abide by my wishes.

[Pghredneck]

Bad idea. You've now given facilities the right to determine treatment (or a lack thereof) based on cost. You've given them the right to end life based on cost when it should be based on her wishes. If the courts find (and they keep doing so) that Schiavo did not want to live, then that should be the end of it. None of the whiners are laying in that bed, nor is Congress, and neither am I. -Rod-I might be wrong Rod, but it seems that they already have the right to do just that. Let’s say that a person shows up at a medical facility. Tests show that they have a life threatening illness requiring medical procedures which would cost a million or more to treat. Upon realizing that the person is uninsured, indelible for welfare and has no means to pay, what is the likelihood that this costly course of treatment would be absorbed by the hospital?

[ANTI-CHRIST SUPERSTAR]

it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!


what a load of CRAP....HUMANS inserted an ARTIFICIAL tube to prolong her misery, pain, and suffering for the past FIFTEEN YEARS!!!! get a clue

[ANTI-CHRIST SUPERSTAR]

BEST case scenario-Schiavo suffers from 'locked in syndrome' whereby she can understand things but can not communicate with the outside world.....there is a song called "ONE" by Metallica about this phenomenon and how miserable and individual suffering from it would be only knowing pain and suffering day after day year after year and so keeping such a person alive by ARTIFICIAL means via a surgically implanted feeding tube is not only wrong it is cruel and unusual punishment.............

and so WORST case scenario is that Mrs. Schiavo has no higher level cognitive abilities and only exhibits some primal lower level brainstem REFLEXES that allow for tracking of visual objects, moaning sounds, blinking, turning of the head, etc. and so there is no point in prolonging the life of someone in such a state to feel pain day after day year after year with zero hope of recovery

of course literally THOUSANDS of patients have their feeding tubes removed every year but u never hear about those cases bc the families are typically in agreement to discontinue them.........
and so with either the best case or worst case scenario this case is ridiculous and all of the busheep should be ashamed for trying to pretend they are doctors when they are not :love_02: and DOCTOR FRIST should resign for being a complete DICK bc he knows better and is violating the hypocratic oath that he swore to uphold............first do no harm

[Aziraphael]

it is up to the LORD to take someone's life not some liberal!!!!


what a load of CRAP....HUMANS inserted an ARTIFICIAL tube to prolong her misery, pain, and suffering for the past FIFTEEN YEARS!!!! get a clue

You are usually crazy, but this makes sense from most points of view.

Anyone seen this yet?

She is brain dead, why cant she be left to rest in peace?


Congress uses emergency powers to 'save' woman
March 20, 2005 - 2:58PM

The controversy over a heavily brain-damaged Florida woman, who has been kept on life support for the past 15 years, took a dramatic turn when congressional leaders invoked emergency powers to pass a bill they hope will result in the woman's resumed feeding.

The move that postponed the Easter recess for the Senate and called the House of Representatives back into session added a new dimension to the high-profile case, which has been embraced by religious conservatives who argue that innocent life, no matter its quality, cannot be taken away.

The White House announced that President George Bush will return to Washington from his Texas ranch earlier than planned today, ready to sign the measure into law.

Forty-one-year-old Terri Schiavo has been in a persistent vegetative state for the past 15 years following a cardiac arrest that sent her into a coma.

Her feeding tube was removed on Friday, after a protracted legal battle that pits the woman's husband, Michael Schiavo, against her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler.

Michael Schiavo insists Terri should be allowed to die because that was her wish communicated to him when she was well, but the Schindlers argue their daughter should be kept alive through life support and have questioned Michael's fitness to serve as his wife's guardian.

A Florida state judge, believing Michael Schiavo's testimony about his wife's wishes, had ordered her caregivers to stop feeding her. But the removal of the feeding tube has caused an outcry among Christian conservatives and many others, who say Terri Schiavo is being starved to death.

Springing into action, congressional leaders first sought to block the removal of the tube by issuing subpoenas to Terri and her husband, summoning both to a congressional hearing. But when the Florida judge rejected the move, they opted for legislative action.

Under a compromise crafted by Senate and House negotiators yesterday, a federal district judge will receive jurisdiction over the case, thus setting the stage for a new protracted round of litigation.

House Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay said he was not certain the federal judge will rule any differently that the state courts. But he was sure the feeding tube will have to be reinserted while the case is being considered.

"It's almost automatic. The tube will have to go back in so that he can consider this matter," DeLay told reporters.

Speed was of the essence, the majority leader insisted, because with feeding tube removed, Terri Schiavo could die of dehydration as early a week from now.

From outside Terri's hospice in Pinellas Park, Florida, Mary Schindler made a passionate appeal to Washington politicians: "Please, please, please save my little girl!"

Almost immediately, House Speaker Dennis Hastert and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said they were using their emergency powers to call lawmakers back into session to pass the bill.

The House was expected to come back from its recess later today while the Senate, which had already approved a similar measure, was to postpone the break and work through the weekend to ensure final passage of the compromise bill.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush was standing with all those working to save Terri's life and wanted to be at the White House as Congress considered the issue.

"The President intends to sign legislation as quickly as possible once it is passed," McClellan said in Crawford, Texas. "This is about defending life."

Schiavo's father Bob Schindler said: "We're elated primarily that they put politics to one side, and they're concentrating on the issue of saving Terri's life."

As the congressional deal was being worked out, emotions swelled outside Schiavo's hospice room, with protesters arrested after they symbolically tried to smuggle in bread and water on her second day without a feeding tube.

Randall Terry, an anti-abortion activist who is acting as a Schindler family spokesman, said the parents were concerned about the tight security in their daughter's room, which includes a police officer standing guard.

"They are so determined to kill her that they don't want mum or dad to even put an ice chip in her mouth," Terry said.

But even before Congress and the president announced the new moves, Terri's husband denounced what he saw as attempts by lawmakers to exploit the case for political gain.

"For Congress to come in and interfere in a personal family matter is outrageous," he said appearing on US television. "They can do it to me, they'll do it to every person in this country."

AFP, AP

[Groder Mullet]

You want to ease her pain by letting her starve to death? Interesting reasoning you have there...

[clean_slate]

Starving to death isn't peacful.

People in her state don't feel pain.

[zapcomix]

People in her state don't feel pain.
That sucks, I hope you never have to find out.

[breeze]

He's a sham husband. He has another wife and two kids. He only wants Terri dead.

He's only married to Terri.

[Aziraphael]

He's a sham husband. He has another wife and two kids. He only wants Terri dead.

After 15 years, you think he is not allowed to be with someone else. Have a little understanding for gods sake.

[clean_slate]

That sucks, I hope you never have to find out.

If I ever get into that state I won't even know it, so it doesn't make much difference. But, I'd much rather die than stay a vegetable.

[undertaker]

Goddam right! Congress butt out and get on with the important shit,
like Base Ball Hearings!

Orson

[Catch]

it is not the will of the LORD for this woman to be MURDERED by a selfish husband who has been cheating on her for years and abusing her. i bet the news media didnt tell you that her husband is an ATHEIST. yes thats right an ATHEIST with motive to harm people. congress needs to intervene NOW and save this woman's life!! she has a RIGHT to life!

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!!!

http://livingsounds.org/10-commandments-small.gif

[clean_slate]

Superstar, I totally agree. Congress has no business wasting time with this crap.

[Soldier 13Fox]

it is not the will of the LORD for this woman to be MURDERED by a selfish husband who has been cheating on her for years and abusing her. i bet the news media didnt tell you that her husband is an ATHEIST. yes thats right an ATHEIST with motive to harm people. congress needs to intervene NOW and save this woman's life!! she has a RIGHT to life!

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!!!

http://livingsounds.org/10-commandments-small.gif

oh good lord no! An athiest?!?!?!

STONE HIM!

:rolleyes:

[clean_slate]

it is not the will of the LORD for this woman to be MURDERED by a selfish husband who has been cheating on her for years and abusing her. i bet the news media didnt tell you that her husband is an ATHEIST. yes thats right an ATHEIST with motive to harm people. congress needs to intervene NOW and save this woman's life!! she has a RIGHT to life!

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!!!

http://livingsounds.org/10-commandments-small.gif

I don't think it's the will of the "Lord" to have her eating through a tube, either. Sometimes you have to make decisions as humans, not religious zealots.

Did the 100,000 Iraqi civilians we've killed have a right to life?

[zapcomix]

it is not the will of the LORD for this woman to be MURDERED by a selfish husband who has been cheating on her for years and abusing her. i bet the news media didnt tell you that her husband is an ATHEIST. yes thats right an ATHEIST with motive to harm people. congress needs to intervene NOW and save this woman's life!! she has a RIGHT to life!

THOU SHALT NOT KILL!!!!

http://livingsounds.org/10-commandments-small.gif
Holy shit...climb down asswipe

[Catch]

-clean slate-

collateral damage is a part of war thats just how it is. those numbers are exaggerated it's more like 10,000, and it was in the name of freedom. have you forgotten what was done to us on that horrible horrible day? id like you to imagine being burned at 900,000 degrees fahrenheit while hearing thousands of screams. that was what it was like inside the WTC after MUSLIMS flew planes into it. these rats must face justice

[zapcomix]

-clean slate-

collateral damage is a part of war thats just how it is. those numbers are exaggerated it's more like 10,000, and it was in the name of freedom. have you forgotten what was done to us on that horrible horrible day? id like you to imagine being burned at 900,000 degrees fahrenheit while hearing thousands of screams. that was what it was like inside the WTC after MUSLIMS flew planes into it. these rats must face justice
What war are you talking about? What thread is this?

[Tuff Mama]

An HONORABLE man would have set her free via a divorce before taking another woman into his life and getting her pregnant twice without benefit of marriage. And the new woman has no respect for the institution of marriage to have agreed to the arrangement.

[Catch]

-zapcomix-

operation Iraqi Freedom under the war on terrorism

[clean_slate]

-clean slate-

collateral damage is a part of war thats just how it is. those numbers are exaggerated it's more like 10,000, and it was in the name of freedom. have you forgotten what was done to us on that horrible horrible day? id like you to imagine being burned at 900,000 degrees fahrenheit while hearing thousands of screams. that was what it was like inside the WTC after MUSLIMS flew planes into it. these rats must face justice

Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11. Comparing your enemy to rats, eh? They were smart enough to get around US security, I'd say they're smarter than rats. And the number is at least 100,000- that's not collateral damage, that's genocide.

[Aziraphael]

An HONORABLE man would have set her free via a divorce before taking another woman into his life and getting her pregnant twice without benefit of marriage. And the new woman has no respect for the institution of marriage to have agreed to the arrangement.
Maybe he didnt want to divorce because then he wouldnt be able to fulfill her last wish, which was to die peacefully rather than being kept alive unnaturally. If he divorced, he wouldnt get a say.

[zapcomix]

-zapcomix-

operation Iraqi Freedom under the war on terrorism
oh...for a minute there I thought this thread was about Terri Schiavo... silly me.

[Catch]

-clean slate-

100,000 huh? whered you get that from? AL JAZEERA? LE MONDE? what a load of malarkey. ever heard of zarqawi?? he is a LIEUTENANT of alqaeda!! he has been in iraq since the early 90s. and you say iraq did not attack us?? you disgrace the memories of the poor poor victims that died on that day!

[clean_slate]

An HONORABLE man would have set her free via a divorce before taking another woman into his life and getting her pregnant twice without benefit of marriage. And the new woman has no respect for the institution of marriage to have agreed to the arrangement.

An honorable woman wouldn't judge people she does not know.

[breeze]

An honorable woman wouldn't judge people she does not know.

How true.

[clean_slate]

-clean slate-

100,000 huh? whered you get that from? AL JAZEERA? LE MONDE? what a load of malarkey. ever heard of zarqawi?? he is a LIEUTENANT of alqaeda!! he has been in iraq since the early 90s. and you say iraq did not attack us?? you disgrace the memories of the poor poor victims that died on that day!

Coming from someone who loves O'Reilly and Fox news, I expect nothing less.

[Soldier 13Fox]

Coming from someone who loves O'Reilly and Fox news, I expect nothing less.

I like O'Reilly, but disagree with 75% of what he says . . .

[Nyarlathotep]

People in her state don't feel pain.
hmm....wonder if they held a lit match under her foot if she would flinch?

[zapcomix]

If I ever get into that state I won't even know it, so it doesn't make much difference. But, I'd much rather die than stay a vegetable.
That's the point, you may not be able to move or react, but your brain is functioning and you know what is happening. Imagine, being frozen physically, but can think and reason for over 10 years. Would you want your parents or anyone else keeping you alive just to make themselves feel better and not considering your feelings?

[DC Penguin]

Were she an animal, we'd consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to keep her alive.

Because she is a human, we consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to put her down.

Why do I always see that as wrong?

[Soldier 13Fox]

Were she an animal, we'd consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to keep her alive.

Because she is a human, we consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to put her down.

Why do I always see that as wrong?
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to DC Penguin again.

[Aziraphael]

Were she an animal, we'd consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to keep her alive.

Because she is a human, we consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to put her down.

Why do I always see that as wrong?

Were I not such a greenie whore, I would have some rep to give to you right now.... just give me 22 hours.

[undertaker]

That's the point, you may not be able to move or react, but your brain is functioning and you know what is happening. Imagine, being frozen physically, but can think and reason for over 10 years. Would you want your parents or anyone else letting you die just to make themselves feel better and not considering your feelings?
edit of zapcomix post in red.



We are all making too many assumptions. It's very hard not to do when the choices are almost impossible.
I've gone through this twice and still am troubled by my decisions. Please have compassion for everyone involved in this - they all think they are doing the right thing.

Orson

[rectar]

edit of zapcomix post in red.



We are all making too many assumptions. It's very hard not to do when the choices are almost impossible.
I've gone through this twice and still am troubled by my decisions. Please have compassion for everyone involved in this - they all think they are doing the right thing.

Orson..I think I know how you would rectarfy her underrtaker !

[ANTI-CHRIST SUPERSTAR]

O'liely is a self-absorbed twit who preaches what he believes the busheep WANT to hear not what they NEED to hear

now back 2 the Schiavo case....

the primary problem here is the parents DENIAL....and DENIAL is one of humanities most powerful psychological coping mechanism which will easily override rationale thought....the parents refuse to accept the FACT that the BEST case scenario for their daughter is 'locked in syndrome' and so the DENIAL kicks in and so they hope and pray that a 'miracle' will happen and so they FORCE an ARTIFICIAL feeding tube into her body to keep her alive by ARTIFICIAL means not for their DAUGHTERS own good but bc of their own DENIAL to appease their own consciouses all the while forcing their daughter to live (best case scenario) every day filled with nothing but PAIN AND MISERY AND SUFFERING......

so NO keeping a dog, cat, or human alive as long as is scientifically possible no matter how much that dog, cat, or human suffers and would prefer death is NOT a good idea

[involved]

Oh to play god,her husband should petition divorce and give her back to the one's who still love her. I am certain this woman has demonstrated her will to live by her very exsistence,it would take more than a feeding tube to keep her alive if she wanted to die,she's Not ready. Give her back to her family.
Were she an animal, we'd consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to keep her alive.

Because she is a human, we consider ourselves cruel and inhumane to put her down.

Why do I always see that as wrong?

[DC Penguin]

Oh to play god,her husband should petition divorce and give her back to the one's who still love her. I am certain this woman has demonstrated her will to live by her very exsistence,it would take more than a feeding tube to keep her alive if she wanted to die,she's Not ready. Give her back to her family.

I doubt he has legal grounds for divorce. I don't know Florida law on the topic, but none of the states that I've lived in would give him grounds for this situation.

[involved]

I am quite certain there would be sufficent grounds for divorce,this man has a new family ,I am sure this isn't the first situation of it's kind,there has to be compassionate reasoning somewhere.
I doubt he has legal grounds for divorce. I don't know Florida law on the topic, but none of the states that I've lived in would give him grounds for this situation.

[DC Penguin]

I am quite certain there would be sufficent grounds for divorce,this man has a new family ,I am sure this isn't the first situation of it's kind,there has to be compassionate reasoning somewhere.


Typical grounds for divorce:
- Abandonment (Not the case here)
- Felony conviction and imprisonment (not the case here)
- Cruelty or abuse (not the case here)
- Adultery (not the case here for her)
- And in many states, irreconcileable differences (not the case here)


She may have grounds for a divorce, but she can't bring it to court.

He doesn't, and if he did, he couldn't bring it either, as she cannot assist in her case.

So . . . it's not an option that I can see. Like you, though, I wish it was.

[oxy]

Looks like the feeding tube is going back in. Congress was able to buy more time for this poor girls family. I do say let the poor woman pass on (damn that sounds cruel but...) I was just reading on ABC that the tube will be going back in since they were expected to pass some special law for her and her only. Bush is expected to sign it.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=597414

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/291815p-249771c.html


I guess Jeb Bush needed some help from his older brother on this one. Which is a little worrying for one family to be so powerful. King George and Prince Jeb....Blahhhhh

[pilobolus]

Wait a minute..."She tried to say she wants to live today, it's been reported."

She can talk????..reported by who and where??

Yes indeed....they posted a transcript of what she said:



Na na na na


na na na na


Hey hey hey


goodbye.

[Proud American]

Yes indeed....they posted a transcript of what she said:



Na na na na


na na na na


Hey hey hey


goodbye.
So seriously she talked and those were her words?

[Tuff Mama]

An honorable woman wouldn't judge people she does not know.

Well, the judge in this case does not personally know Terri. He has never once even seen her. Yet he gets to condemn her to death.

BTW, just call me Dear Abby or Ann Landers, they used to judge this situation the same way.

[Flying_Monkey]

All I can really say about the case is this.

If I was ever in that condition that I'd want a bullet put through my skull,".44 cal or higher."
Starving to death isn't fun and is in fact painful.

No I'm not saying she should live, They are just going about it wrong.

[VERITAS]

But, if the parents never put up a stink about it, you wouldn't see any government action on this. So don't try to pin on this on Bush.
O.K. Have it your way:


Junior Bush is an unwitting pawn in this ghoulish fiasco. He has no control over his funtions either.


http://web.utk.edu/~mcoffey/ibush/dubya.jpg

[oxy]

Well it looks like you're going to get your wish and the tube is going back in from what I am reading. If a judge can't decide in your eyes, than who can?

It's not the judge that really decided, it was her husband, the judge is just the in-between.

I believe the husband when he says she told him she would not too live this way. My wife and I have often had this conversation since she is a trauma nurse and both of us would want that tube removed.

What would be the proper way of leting her die? A mophine overdose? What?



Well, the judge in this case does not personally know Terri. He has never once even seen her. Yet he gets to condemn her to death.

BTW, just call me Dear Abby or Ann Landers, they used to judge this situation the same way.

[oxy]

Nobody has any comments on the congress getting involved in her case and her case only? What about the hundreds of others in the same condition that will not be affected by this law? The only way the Democrats would sign onto this with Terry is if it only aplied to Terry since the Dems feel it's not the Governments area to intervene in this crap. I have to agree with the Dems on this.

So how about it people, whats the feeling on the tube going back in again, that has to be torture alone? This has to be what the third or fourth time it's been removed and reinserted?

It's really none of us to judge, it's her husbands and husbands only.

[DC Penguin]

Nobody has any comments on the congress getting involved in her case and her case only? What about the hundreds of others in the same condition that will not be affected by this law? The only way the Democrats would sign onto this with Terry is if it only aplied to Terry since the Dems feel it's not the Governments area to intervene in this crap. I have to agree with the Dems on this.

So how about it people, whats the feeling on the tube going back in again, that has to be torture alone? This has to be what the third or fourth time it's been removed and reinserted?

It's really none of us to judge, it's her husbands and husbands only.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to oxy again.

[Aziraphael]

This woman is trapped in hell. If she were conscious in any way, I cant imagine how horrible every moment is. Why is it anyconcern of George Bush? Congress should simply not have gotten involved.

[VERITAS]

Ah, those repub 'family 'val-yooz'! Instigate Big Gub'ment costly intervention to perpetuate the camera-friendly 'life' of one irrevocably vegetative woman whose preservaion is funded by the taxpayer, but slash medicare, deny access to cheaper drugs to desperate elders, and ignore the 45 million Americans without health insurance.

Of course, the Bushi'ites see in Ms Schiavo a kindred spirit (Hell, she can't even pronounce 'nuclear'!), but this whole sordid grandstanding spectacle is morally repugnant. I never thought that I would harken back to those Halcyon days when the repubs were merely braying over a televised, fleeting distant glimpse of Janet Jackson's right mammary, but, at this terminal stage, their moral compass is only of use to disoriented proctologists!

[ProudAmerican]

Given the law of the land, the husband is supposed to have say. That said, I also feel like the guy is a jerk and doesn't give a shit for Terri. What I don't understand is that her family wants to take care of her and he still doesn't want that.( If I'm not mistaken, hasn't he remarried or at least moved on). So why doesn't the husband let her family take care of her? Shes not in any pain, she's not on a respirator, she simply needs a feeding tube.

Then there is also the issue of how this actually occured. Some doctors think they may be able to get her to talk with a lot of work. Could there possibly be something that the husband doesn't want to get out?

Its a sad situation right now where unfortunately this guy has control over what happens to her. While I don't think things like this should be taken to the federal level normally, maybe we should ammend something to where if a person is not physically suffering and the husband doesn't want the responsibility for caring for her, the right to care for her should go back to her parents by default.

[ProudAmerican]

Ah, those repub 'family 'val-yooz'! Instigate Big Gub'ment costly intervention to perpetuate the camera-friendly 'life' of one irrevocably vegetative woman whose preservaion is funded by the taxpayer, but slash medicare, deny access to cheaper drugs to desperate elders, and ignore the 45 million Americans without health insurance.

Of course, the Bushi'ites see in Ms Schiavo a kindred spirit (Hell, she can't even pronounce 'nuclear'!), but this whole sordid grandstanding spectacle is morally repugnant. I never thought that I would harken back to those Halcyon days when the repubs were merely braying over a televised, fleeting distant glimpse of Janet Jackson's right mammary, but, at this terminal stage, their moral compass is only of use to disoriented proctologists!

OK, so by your thinking should parents of severly mentally retarded children be allowed to end their life? You know, the kind that just sit there in a wheel chair drooling on themselves. The kind that have to be fed, taken to the toilet, and the bottoms wiped. I know were talking about the parents instead of a husband, but isn't it really close to the same. It's a slippery slope once started down.

[VERITAS]

OK, so by your thinking should parents of severly mentally retarded children be allowed to end their life? You know, the kind that just sit there in a wheel chair drooling on themselves. The kind that have to be fed, taken to the toilet, and the bottoms wiped. I know were talking about the parents instead of a husband, but isn't it really close to the same. It's a slippery slope once started down.
Presumably, the individuals you describe are not claimed by their loved ones to have, when cognizant, expressed the desire to end their suffering should they become irrevocably vegetative. Any 'slippery slope' concern pertains in the opposite direction, as a precedent here could well lead to vast, government-mandated greenhouses.

The lowlife ploy of slandering the husband for insisting his wife's wishes be honored in this case is irrelevant. Last week, he rejected a $1 million offer from a Rancho Santa Fe businessman to drop efforts to remove her feeding tube.

Reportedly, other such offers – one for $10 million – had already been made and rejected during Michael Schiavo's legal battle for permission to stop his wife's artificial feedings so she can die.

Michael Schiavo says he once promised his wife before she suffered a heart attack and severe brain damage 15 years ago that he would not keep her alive by artificial means. She has lived in what court-appointed doctors call a persistent vegetative state since then.

Enough is enough. Decency demands it.

[Mumblezs]

Deciding when to stop nutrition is the hardest thing to do. My son was a part of hospice for just about his whole life. Making him a DNR was probably the easiest out of everything I had to decide. I KNEW I didn't want a machine keeping him alive, but I never thought the day would come when I had to decide that stopping his nutrition would be more comfortable for him than feeding him. I watched and (I now believe) made him suffer for months till I was able to believe that it was the best decision I could make for him. The doctors told me that with the amount he was taking in daily that he was actually past the point of feeling hunger.
I now think back and feel that it was just being selfish on my part by keeping the feeding tube in all those months (I wanted him around as long as possible) and now know that what I did was the right decision for him.

[ProudAmerican]

Michael Schiavo says he once promised his wife before she suffered a heart attack and severe brain damage 15 years ago that he would not keep her alive by artificial means. She has lived in what court-appointed doctors call a persistent vegetative state since then.

Enough is enough. Decency demands it.

OK then, where is the proof that she said this. I know the possibility is there she said this, but then again so is the possibility she didn't.

From what I've heard or recall, this guy hasn't allowed any speech specialists or any kind of rehab doctors, is that true? If so, don't you find it kind of funny that he doesn't even want to try to rehabilitate.

Also, remember she's not physically suffering. Why won't he let her parents care for her? Something sounds fishy.

[Elli]

Deciding when to stop nutrition is the hardest thing to do. My son was a part of hospice for just about his whole life. Making him a DNR was probably the easiest out of everything I had to decide. I KNEW I didn't want a machine keeping him alive, but I never thought the day would come when I had to decide that stopping his nutrition would be more comfortable for him than feeding him. I watched and (I now believe) made him suffer for months till I was able to believe that it was the best decision I could make for him. The doctors told me that with the amount he was taking in daily that he was actually past the point of feeling hunger.
I now think back and feel that it was just being selfish on my part by keeping the feeding tube in all those months (I wanted him around as long as possible) and now know that what I did was the right decision for him.

Mumblezs, my heart goes out to you and to all of those who have had to make these decisions for their loved ones. *hugs*

I think hell has frozen over because I am agreeing with Veritas. I'm so appalled at Congress and the President interferring in this matter or any matter. It is not within their right to do this. This IS between her and her husband and this case is and has been used as a political tool.

[VERITAS]

Deciding when to stop nutrition is the hardest thing to do. My son was a part of hospice for just about his whole life. Making him a DNR was probably the easiest out of everything I had to decide. I KNEW I didn't want a machine keeping him alive, but I never thought the day would come when I had to decide that stopping his nutrition would be more comfortable for him than feeding him. I watched and (I now believe) made him suffer for months till I was able to believe that it was the best decision I could make for him. The doctors told me that with the amount he was taking in daily that he was actually past the point of feeling hunger.
I now think back and feel that it was just being selfish on my part by keeping the feeding tube in all those months (I wanted him around as long as possible) and now know that what I did was the right decision for him.
Mumblezs, you were never being selfish. Love was your motivation, and there is no higher authority.

[clavin42]

Mumblezs, my heart goes out to you and to all of those who have had to make these decisions for their loved ones. *hugs*

I think hell has frozen over because I am agreeing with Veritas. I'm so appalled at Congress and the President interferring in this matter or any matter. It is not within their right to do this. This IS between her and her husband and this case is and has been used as a political tool.


Sure this is political. However, wouldnt you agree that the laws are flawed?

From what I know about this case, the Parents of the person in question have claimed that proper diagnosis and care has not been given to her.

Now if this is the case, then the law is flawed and congress should act. The only real issue is the fact that they sat and waited until it was too late so they would have the political force to move this through.

They should have done the research and work and actually changed the problems with these laws. In no circumstance should proper diagnosis of someone in this situation fail to take place.

[Elli]

OK then, where is the proof that she said this. I know the possibility is there she said this, but then again so is the possibility she didn't.

From what I've heard or recall, this guy hasn't allowed any speech specialists or any kind of rehab doctors, is that true? If so, don't you find it kind of funny that he doesn't even want to try to rehabilitate.

Also, remember she's not physically suffering. Why won't he let her parents care for her? Something sounds fishy.

There are many conflicting stories. BUT ultimately, it is up to her husband and he claims that those are her wishes. She had been given I think 8 years for rehab, etc., before he decided, along with her doctors, that she was never going to recover or have anything but just brain stem activity. The only reason that I can think of that he won't let the parent's care for is because that is not her wishes. It would be easier to just hand her over to them. I think the husband is being unreasonably vilified in the court of public opinion.

[ProudAmerican]

I think the husband is being unreasonably vilified in the court of public opinion.

It could be he is. I don't know much about him, but the media is making him look very bad if he isn't. If his intentions are pure of heart, and he really is fulfilling her wishes he needs to do a better job of getting that across.

[Elli]

Sure this is political. However, wouldnt you agree that the laws are flawed?

From what I know about this case, the Parents of the person in question have claimed that proper diagnosis and care has not been given to her.

Now if this is the case, then the law is flawed and congress should act. The only real issue is the fact that they sat and waited until it was too late so they would have the political force to move this through.

They should have done the research and work and actually changed the problems with these laws. In no circumstance should proper diagnosis of someone in this situation fail to take place.

The courts have heard of these accusations of improper care and have repeatedly found that to be untrue.

[Elli]

It could be he is. I don't know much about him, but the media is making him look very bad if he isn't. If his intentions are pure of heart, and he really is fulfilling her wishes he needs to do a better job of getting that across.

Actually, he doesn't since it should be a private family matter that should be respected.

[clavin42]

The courts have heard of these accusations of improper care and have repeatedly found that to be untrue.


Yes but couldnt they only view evidence from the doctors that visited Ms. Shivo previous to the developments that her parents say she has made?

I thought that the judges could not rule on any other information then that provided by Mr. Shivo. Isn't that why the parents claim he wont have any more docs look at her?

[ProudAmerican]

Actually, he doesn't since it should be a private family matter that should be respected.

A private family matter? Whats more private or family than your mom and dad? Thats where your wrong. Someone equally or even more close to her are wanting to care for her. If your really sincere in what your doing in this case, you had better try and share your side of the story.

[VERITAS]

I think hell has frozen over because I am agreeing with Veritas.


http://llizard.crosswinds.net/gifs/skate2.gifhttp://llizard.crosswinds.net/gifs/skate2.gif
http://www.bellsnwhistles.com/afla/afi010.gifhttp://www.bellsnwhistles.com/afla/afi010.gif

[VERITAS]

Whats more private or family than your mom and dad?


http://www.pollingreport.com/images/ACBschiavo.GIF

[Elli]

Yes but couldnt they only view evidence from the doctors that visited Ms. Shivo previous to the developments that her parents say she has made?

I thought that the judges could not rule on any other information then that provided by Mr. Shivo. Isn't that why the parents claim he wont have any more docs look at her?

Court appointed doctors have been evaluating her and have all concluded that she is in a persistent vegitative state. These aren't physicans hired by either side. From what I understand, the judge has ruled on information provided by these court appointed doctors and not information that Mr. Schiavo has provided. If I'm wrong about that, someone let me know.

http://journals.aol.com/justice1949/JUSTICEFORTERRISCHIAVO/entries/488
http://journals.aol.com/justice1949/JUSTICEFORTERRISCHIAVO/entries/265
http://www.terrisfight.org/documents.html - this has affidavits of only one side of the case from what I can tell

[Elli]

A private family matter? Whats more private or family than your mom and dad? Thats where your wrong. Someone equally or even more close to her are wanting to care for her. If your really sincere in what your doing in this case, you had better try and share your side of the story.

When you get married, your spouse is the person who takes over legal and medical matters if you are incapacitated. Mr. Schiavo has been in the public spotlight for years. He was recently on CNN and other shows and I'm sure there are transcripts. What more can he do? The side for keeping Terri on the feeding tube is louder.

I do feel immense sympathy for the family as well and I do understand their actions, reasonings and desires.

[WhoAmI]

When you get married, your spouse is the person who takes over legal and medical matters if you are incapacitated. Mr. Schiavo has been in the public spotlight for years. He was recently on CNN and other shows and I'm sure there are transcripts. What more can he do? The side for keeping Terri on the feeding tube is louder.

I do feel immense sympathy for the family as well and I do understand their actions, reasonings and desires.
Well if this case is indicative of what the future is to bring then it appears your spouse is not responsible for you but rather Congress and the President are.

[DC Penguin]

Mumblezs, you were never being selfish. Love was your motivation, and there is no higher authority.


Wow! You DO have a heart! While I'm shocked to say this, Veritas, greenie for you.

[DC Penguin]

Well if this case is indicative of what the future is to bring then it appears your spouse is not responsible for you but rather Congress and the President are.

Take it a step further, though. The problem is that her plight became a national headline story. If the government does nothing, then they are accused of failure. So, they do something to appease the masses that they are doing their job of protecting their citizens.

I'm all for pulling the tube. I have a DNR and living will written, as does my wife, as do my parents. I wish TS had one as well, as it would have ended this horrible fiasco. I couldn't let my dogs suffer as they took on painful ailments in their later years, and I couldn't let my wife, child, or parent suffer in a hopeless abyss, either. A day in the hospital always feels like a week or a month, and that's if you CAN communicate. Such a horrid life is not worth living.

The Federal intervention is also DESPICABLE. It is an abuse of authority that should not be allowed to happen, and I hope a judge shuts down this sick game swiftly.

[Mumblezs]

Mumblezs, you were never being selfish. Love was your motivation, and there is no higher authority.
I thought I was acting out of love because I thought How could I just let my child starve? But in the long run I think I was just hurting him.
How do you ever know when the time is right for something as drastic as that?
I think a lot now about how I would like to know what he thought about the choices I made for him. He never had the chance to voice his own wishes like this guy said she did.
I can understand why the parents feel the way they do, but I can also understand his side.

[Elli]

Florida State law lays out an order of health care directives in the case of those who are not competent to make those decisions. Spouse is #1 on that list, #2 is adult children if there isn't a spouse and #3 is parents if there is no spouse or adult children.

Attached at the end of this document is a Uniform Living Will, Designation of Health Care Surrogate, and a Donor Form. You can print these out, sign them in front of two witnesses and make sure your loved ones have a copy of it. Put another copy in a safe deposit box. http://www.fdhc.state.fl.us/MCHQ/Health_Facility_Regulation/HC_Advance_Directives/adv_dir.pdf

[breeze]

Who here would honestly want to spend the rest of their live in the condtion that Terri is in?

[Elli]

Who here would honestly want to spend the rest of their live in the condtion that Terri is in?

I don't. That's why I'm excuting my living will today. I have expressed my wishes to my husband and family, but that document will protect all of them from having to actually make that decision.

[wanderer]

A private family matter? Whats more private or family than your mom and dad? Thats where your wrong. Someone equally or even more close to her are wanting to care for her. If your really sincere in what your doing in this case, you had better try and share your side of the story.

Mrs. Schiavo is not five years old. She's a married adult woman and her husband is now her family; he, not junior or those shmucks loitering around congress, have the last word.

As for her mother, she’s an inconsiderate selfish lunatic in dire need of psychiatric help... If you really care about that family, you'll take up a collection and throw that old woman in a padded cell where she belongs.

[breeze]

I don't. That's why I'm excuting my living will today. I have expressed my wishes to my husband and family, but that document will protect all of them from having to actually make that decision.

Everyone needs to do the same thing. This poor woman's life has turned into a media circus.

[knightroar]

welcome back wanderer

[ANTI-CHRIST SUPERSTAR]

chirp chirp said the cricket

[clean_slate]

That's the point, you may not be able to move or react, but your brain is functioning and you know what is happening. Imagine, being frozen physically, but can think and reason for over 10 years. Would you want your parents or anyone else keeping you alive just to make themselves feel better and not considering your feelings?

Actually, in a vegetative state a person doesn't have a normal functioning brain. So many brain cells have died from lack of oxygen that you pretty much cease all "animal" activity. She is in all sense a vegetable, hence the use of the word to describe the state.

I surely hope you are not a doctor, cause your lack of understanding is frightening.

[clean_slate]

Well, the judge in this case does not personally know Terri. He has never once even seen her. Yet he gets to condemn her to death.

BTW, just call me Dear Abby or Ann Landers, they used to judge this situation the same way.

She was "condemned" to death a long time ago. Unless you have a magical potion to make neurons grow back, of course.

[clean_slate]

All I can really say about the case is this.

If I was ever in that condition that I'd want a bullet put through my skull,".44 cal or higher."
Starving to death isn't fun and is in fact painful.

No I'm not saying she should live, They are just going about it wrong.

How are you so sure she can feel pain? I'd really love to know how many people here are neurologists.

[DC Penguin]

I think it's becoming obvious how people are leaning, but wouldn't this be a great thread for a poll? Anyone know how to add one?

[Dr Doom]

BEST case scenario-Schiavo suffers from 'locked in syndrome' whereby she can understand things but can not communicate with the outside world.....there is a song called "ONE" by Metallica about this phenomenon and how miserable and individual suffering from it would be only knowing pain and suffering day after day year after year and so keeping such a person alive by ARTIFICIAL means via a surgically implanted feeding tube is not only wrong it is cruel and unusual punishment


this is not correct. i have seen a locked in person and they have use of some cranial nerves- they could blink to communicate. if shes locked in she could tell them whether she wanted that tube in or out via blinking yes or no.

[Dr Doom]

ya im not totally up to speed on this case and i hear conflicting things about her condition. her condition is to me the primary way to objectively determine whether to pull the plug on her.

[Dr Doom]

You'd be surprised how much suffering families heap upon their loved ones. I haven't seen doc around for awhile but I'm sure Elli could easily verify this through him. I've seen doctors reverse a DNR order under pressure from family members even though he KNOWS that the order is the patient's wish. Afterall, the wish is well memorialized in the medical record. No matter. The doctors live in fear of the familes, knowing damned good and well that if they disobey there will likely be a lawsuit in the making. It's understandable that family members would have a hard time letting go, and most come around, sooner rather than later. But I've seen this crap go on for months, with patients being resuscitated numerous times, or doctors being unwilling to simply turn the respirator off and walk away from it. Fact is, the family has an agenda. The husband is the only legal guardian and forcing a reversal on this is going to open a lot of ugly doors down the line if it succeeds. The public should have no legal standing in this and with luck, if this gets to another court, that court will turn down the volume. And Congress is going to have to be taken to task for writing a Bill of Attainder. -Rod- yes i've seen a lot of needless suffering and guilt heaped upon the patients due to the family. I did a one year on hospital based clinical medicine internship before radiology residency. I felt it was at times unfair to the families to make these decisions because if they opted to DNR someone, they felt amazingly guilty. the DNR paperwork and living will/ power of attorney paperwork is available as part of the admission process when you check into the hosp but most do not fill it out and then something happens and the family is stuck trying to divine the incapacitated patients "intent". anyway we spent a lot of time taking care of the living dead since the family was unwilling to face reality, at the expense of thousands or at times hundred of thousands of dollars of "often" taxpayer money. i would be lying if i didnt feel a sense of moral quandry at the thought of families without medical training and without an objective sense of what is actually going on with a patient being allowed to decide how tax payer money (medicare/ medicaid) got spent. I think it's part of the larger picture of the morality or immorality of spending other peoples money, as so often happens in medicine since nearly all of us have third party payers interjected between the provider and patient. anyway i'm a bit off track here.

anyway due to familial guilt and often greed (due to the monthly SS checks coming in), i have seen families prolong lives needlessly. Many do not understand what they subject the patient to when they go for too long on a respirator. For instance, longer than 2-4 weeks, you get a tracheostomy and once stabilized, shuttled off to a respiratory care facility, basically a nursing type home but everyone is on the respirators, usually forever. that is a depressing fate if you ask me.

As far as going against the families or patients wishes: if i do something without consent, i may be open to criminal prosecution / assault and battery so we dont go around doing things against others wishes very often, if ever. we had very limited ability to make decisions. If someone isn't a DNR, they must run a code if a cardiac arrest occurs. One time, we coded someone 4 or 5 times. The code runner finnaly decided that it was medically futile and we used the ability we did have- which is start the code and then declare it over without doing too much. We did have that ability althought it was rarely invoked. I learned that opening a code cart itself costs a few grand. amazing really.

as far as this case goes, i hear conflciting things and i would need to research her status more before i could say where i came down on this case.

[Ponder]

we spent a lot of time takeing care of the living dead since the family was unwilling to face reality, at the expense of thousands or times hundred of thousands of dollars of "often" taxpayer money.

I agree with your phrase, "living dead". Two years ago, my father suffered an aortic aneurysm. He lived within minutes of the Mayo Clinic in Phoenix, so the ambulance took him there. The doctors were extraordinary, and after hours of surgery, actually thought he would be able to go home. However, a few days later, his kidneys began to fail. At this point, we flew back to Phoenix. We were met with a team of doctors who explained everything. For the rest of his existence, my father would be paralyzed from at least the waist down, may, or may not, get his speech back, would have to be taken in for dialysis, and may, or may not, need a respirator for the rest of his life.

The doctors and surgeons through their work, had given my father every chance to survive. He probably wouldn't have lasted the night at any other hospital. However, it was their opinion, and one we agreed with, that in this case, we would not be "sustaining life", but "prolonging death".

My father died that night while staring at me. I'll never forget it. He couldn't talk to us, but he always said he didn't want to live that way. Do I think it was the best thing to do? You bet.

My uncle died about two months after that. He had ALS (Lou Gehrig's Disease), and was on a respirator. He also had the feeding tube. He asked us to choose a date, gather the family, and remove him from the respirator. It was his choice. He put up a good fight, but he said it just wasn't living.

Every adult should make their decision about this issue, and like Elli said, put it in writing. You owe it to everybody who cares about you. Government should have no say in the matter.

[Elli]

I'm sorry for your losses Ponder. It's never easy.

[Dr Doom]

Wow, Ponder. a horrible set of stories. I'm so sorry for your loss. We went thru a similar decision process with both my dad and my grandma in the last couple of years. Its very, very hard.

I'm sorry if some things i may have said seem insensitive, but 99% of the people here and IRL have no idea of some of the things I've seen, with death all around you. It changes you and your perspectives on things. And it raises some very tough and, at times, unresolvable moral questions.

[Regis]

I'm sorry I cannot grasp this. This shell of what remains of a woman who cannot grasp the concept of eating itself let alone eat, has become a bone of contention of those who insist it is RIGHTEOUS that she be force fed, at great expense mind you, all the while higher functioning yet still starving masses that are ACUTELY aware of what food is and the concept of starvation.... these people will be passed over...... because, while starving, they are not lucky enough to be vegetables.
How many malnourished but functional children could this fiasco feed?
Christ I'm saying it here and NOW for the record if I am EVER in the predicament in which this unfortunate woman is in, I DO NOT want ANYONE from ANYWHERE force food into me. Not that I have any real concerns that you Jesus people would ruuuuush to keep a pornographer alive. But give my feeding tube money to a starving kid.
Pull my plug, let me go in peace. AND if anyone stands between ME and MY GOD and forces their will upon me by way of a feeding tube, I will reap vengence in any manner in which I am most able........ should the opportunity present itself, assuming you bastards eventually let me die, as I was intended.
Maybe her inability to eat IS GOD's WAY of saying it IS her time.

[kjo]

Maybe her inability to eat IS GOD's WAY of saying it IS her time.
Interesting concept there.

[VERITAS]

This unnecessarily sensationalized case has evoked the heart-wrenching recollections of several here, and at least has served an admonitory -and possibly cathartic - purpose. My sympathies to all who have endurred such losses. Our family tragedies such as the GOPpers are now exploiting are, unfortunately, all too commonplace.

We have certainly witnessed their opportunistically propounding fraudulent pretexts before to carry out their covert schemes. Is exploiting one family tragedy now a repeat of their sordid game plan?



WHY ARE REPUBLOWHARDS TAKING EXTRAORDINARY STEPS TO SAVE HOPELESS CASE? (http://www.opednews.com/wade_032005_delay_schiavo.htm) Recently, Michael Schiavo won a court battle that allowed the removal of the feeding tube for his wife. Since the starvation process would take some time, Terri’s family immediately went back to try and fight the legality of this decision. What they got, was support from an unexpected source. Tom Delay and the GOP have now seized upon this story and are using it to further their own agenda and to paint their opponents, the democrats, in an awkward position. In a feeble attempt to stop the removal of the feeding tube, Delay tried to subpoena Terri to appear and testify before Congress. An obvious publicity stunt, since Terri Schiavo has not spoken in 15 years, the attempt failed and the tube was removed. Undeterred, Delay vowed to continue to fight this fight, declaring the court’s decision a “moral and legal tragedy” and accusing the judge of “trying to kill Terri for 4 1/2 years."

Delay of course has no idea what he is talking about since he has only been involved in this case for a few weeks, when it gained some political legs for him. There is a word for that where I come from. It is called hypocrisy. To further this allegation, ABC News obtained a GOP talking points memo (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/print?id=595905) which explained to Senate republicans why their involvement in the Schiavo case would be important. The talking points stated that the Schiavo case was an important moral issue and that the "pro-life base will be excited," and that it is a "great political issue -- this is a tough issue for Democrats."

Did you notice that there was nothing about Terri Schiavo in their rationale for taking up this cause? Instead, the GOP has outlined that they need to align themselves on the side of Terri Schiavo because:

1) It will excite the pro-life base
2) It is a great political issue
3) It is a tough issue for democrats

Is anyone else disgusted? When asked about the talking points, Delay denied they were GOP related and denounced them. Sure Tom, we believe you. After all, you have never been involved in anything unethical, right? Oh wait a minute, there were a couple of problems weren’t there? Let’s take a quick look at the ethics of Mr. Delay:

1) Delay’s Political Action Committee is under criminal investigation for using corporate monies to finance political campaigns.
2) Delay tried to bribe another congressman to vote for the Medicare Bill. He earned a public admonishment from the House Ethics Committee for this.
3) Delay used taxpayer monies to fuel a partisan hunt for missing democrats in Texas. He was rebuked by the House Ethics Panel for this.
4) Delay set up a children’s charity as a front to collect soft money from anonymous donors. Some of this money was then used for “dinners, a golf tournament, and rock concerts.” This allowed companies who wanted to win favor with Delay to do so without revealing themselves as campaign donors.
5) In another rebuke by the House Ethics Committee, we saw executives at Westar Energy state that they believed their $56,500 contribution to the Delay PAC would get them a “seat at the table” when key energy legislation was going to be drafted. Delay also played in the Westar golf fundraiser, just as the 2002 House-Senate conference on major energy legislation was getting underway,
6) Delay took $100,000 from a Texas prison company as a bill was pending that dealt with the privatization of Texas prisons.
7) Delay received a “private rebuke” in 1999 for misusing his power to payback a trade group that had named a democrat to head their Washington operation. Delay had stopped two uncontroversial trade bills which hurt the trade group in question and told them that they would lose all GOP access unless they hired a republican instead.
8) Delay accepted donations to his own defense fund from two individuals he then named to the very House Ethics Committee that had already been so critical of him. Did you get that America? The House Ethics Committee correctly rebuked Delay three separate times. In response, Delay removed those that would dare be critical of him, and replaced them with people who had already donated money to his defense fund.
9) Delay took an opulent vacation in 2000, paid for by an Indian tribe and a gambling services company, both of which opposed legislation which Delay then voted against, two months later.
10) Delay accepted a trip to South Korea, which was paid for by a South Korean lobbying group, a violation of House rules. The cost of this trip was in excess of $100,000.
11) Delay proposed changes to the House Ethics Committee which “would prevent the committee from launching any investigation without the support of at least one republican – a restriction designed to protect the majority leader.”
12) Delay tried to convince House leaders to abandon an 11 year old rule which required leaders to step aside temporarily if indicted. Delay was facing possible indictment at the time. The idea was dropped because it “sent the wrong message.” Do you think?

Not content to mangle the ethics of the House of Representatives, Mr. Delay has now decided to venture into the realm of the ethics of social consciousness. The problem for him is ethics are ethics and if you do not have any, it will become apparent regardless of the forum. He expects us to believe that he has taken up the Schiavo cause for a reason he does not comprehend, ethics. The talking points reveal all we need to know, this is not about Terry Schiavo for Tom Delay. It is another opportunity to use someone for his own advantage. Michael Schiavo referred to it as a mockery and he is correct. He stated this week, “These people in Congress are walking all over my personal and private life. I'm telling you, the United States citizens, you better start speaking up, because these people are going to trample into your personal, private affairs." On this point, Michael Schiavo is right. He is right because Tom Delay could care less about Terry Schiavo. She is only a political weapon for him to wield. You can be sure of this because for every Terry Schiavo, there is a Sun Hudson, who never gets the attention of the Tom Delay’s of the world. Therein lies their hypocrisy.

Sun Hudson is the second person in our story. Sun was 17 pounds and six months old when the staff at Texas Children's Hospital removed his breathing tube and allowed him to die this week. Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too small. This condition is often found in utero, but Sun’s mother had no pre-natal care, so the condition went undiagnosed. Placed on a ventilator, doctors eventually recommended withdrawing treatment but Sun’s mother, Wanda, refused. Unfortunately for Wanda Hudson, Tom Delay’s home state of Texas has a law which allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care, even if a patient's family members disagree. Where was the self-righteous Tom Delay in the case of Sun Hudson? His silence is deafening in its hypocrisy.

I do not pretend to have the answers to what is moral or correct in either of these situations. I just prefer to be consistent. If you believe all life is life and must be protected at all cost, then stand up for it at all times, not just when it is politically beneficial. In the battle over Terri Schiavo both sides claim things are not as the other side claims. Terri’s family says she is responsive to stimuli. Michael, her husband insists that his wife would not want to live like this and that this is about mercy.

In the case of little Sun Hudson, the doctors paid to defend the hospital’s decision to end his life said, “This isn't murder. It's mercy, and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment." It sounds like Michael Schiavo and these doctors can agree about a lot. Wanda Hudson had this to say after finally getting some media coverage, “I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself. So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious." It sounds like Wanda Hudson and the family of Terri Schiavo could agree about a lot as well.

That is the point isn’t it? There are two sides to these heart-wrenching stories. Both sides have their valid points and are deserving of their rights and privacy. Both sides are legitimate in their defense of what they truly believe in. The ethically bankrupt Tom Delay on the other hand, should be ashamed to politicize the issue of life and death. He should be embarrassed to drag his own hypocrisy into the arena of public opinion, just to “excite the pro-life base” or to give the democrats a “tough political issue to handle.”

Terri Schiavo is a real person and deserves better than to be treated as a political football to further the cause of the GOP. That is hypocrisy. This is the same hypocrisy that says that George Bush believes in a “culture of life” while waging war to no end. It is the same hypocrisy that sees so many people in the right-to-life movement cross-enrolled in the National Rifle Association supporting armor piercing bullets for “hunters”. It is the same hypocrisy that sees a man such as Tom Delay, devoid of ethics; decrying the ethical state of affairs in the Terri Schiavo case at the very same instant they are removing the tube from Sun Hudson, killing him.

Where is the outrage for Sun Hudson? Who cries for Sun Hudson? Wasn’t the life of Sun Hudson as important as the life of Terri Schiavo? The easy answer is yes. Unfortunately, the truthful answer is the life of Sun Hudson was just not as politically valuable. That should cause us all to at least pause for a moment and realize that the value of life should never be measured politically.




THE REAL HOPELESS CASE THE REPUBLOWHARDS ARE NOW ATTEMPTING TO PROLONG BY EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES:
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2004/11/17/image656139l.jpg
DELAY THE INEVITABLE

[Spleen]

I know this might stun a lot of you but I actually haven't been followign the Shiavo case. As a physician I let people die natural deaths weekly... Be it by pulling feeding tubes, turning off antibiotics etc.

Here's how I understand the case..

Terri Schiavo never documented in writing what her wishes were.

Husband claims that Shiavo told him she never wanted to be kept alive artificially.


Parents say Shiavo always wanted everything done to the bitter end..

Am I correct so far?


If so, then every law in every state as well as every medical ethics seminar I've been to states that when the patients wishes are not entirely clear.. (As is the case here) then the only morally correct ground is to assume the patient wasnted everything done and proceed.

INdeed many patients fight through years of pain and suffering to eventually have fairly good functional capacity.

Going further..

As I understand it, Shiavo's husband has not allowed speech therapy nor physical therapy to work with Shiavo??

If so, how do we know she doesn't have the capacity to make improvements?

We don't. I don't care what any doctor says, as a doctor, you can't tell what a patients prognosis is without first trying. No lab, or physical finding would tell you this WITH THE EXCEPTION OF an EEG that shows total brain death..

Is Shaivo brain dead?

If so, then yes, it is immoral and wasteful to keep her alive.. I assume she's not as most states allow doctors to terminate care in a brain dead patients regardless of the patient's family.. under the "futile care" premise.

People need to remember that a human heart doesn't need a brain to beat. It would do so on a table outside the human body as long it was supplied with oxygen. (which is the case with Shiavo since her respiratory reflex is intact. (this doesn't involve the cortex or "thinking Center".. Think of it as a knee reflex that involves the spine, not the brain.

[knightroar]

you may be interested in reading this thread:

http://www.wincoast.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2155

In it Dr. Doom, Elli's husband, also a physician, gives his views on this case

[VERITAS]

Parents say Shiavo always wanted everything done to the bitter end..

Am I correct so far?


She has now been seized as a mindless pawn in a ruthless opportunistic political scam that transcends ethics and medicine, but I don't believe Mrs Schiavo's parents have claimed that she had ever expressed any such wish.

Perhaps someone might provide a quotation to alter my impression?

[Loopy]

I know this might stun a lot of you but I actually haven't been followign the Shiavo case. As a physician I let people die natural deaths weekly... Be it by pulling feeding tubes, turning off antibiotics etc.

Here's how I understand the case..

Terri Schiavo never documented in writing what her wishes were.

Husband claims that Shiavo told him she never wanted to be kept alive artificially.


Parents say Shiavo always wanted everything done to the bitter end..

Am I correct so far?


Yep.



If so, then every law in every state as well as every medical ethics seminar I've been to states that when the patients wishes are not entirely clear.. (As is the case here) then the only morally correct ground is to assume the patient wasnted everything done and proceed.

INdeed many patients fight through years of pain and suffering to eventually have fairly good functional capacity.

Going further..

As I understand it, Shiavo's husband has not allowed speech therapy nor physical therapy to work with Shiavo??

If so, how do we know she doesn't have the capacity to make improvements?

We don't. I don't care what any doctor says, as a doctor, you can't tell what a patients prognosis is without first trying. No lab, or physical finding would tell you this WITH THE EXCEPTION OF an EEG that shows total brain death..

Is Shaivo brain dead?

If so, then yes, it is immoral and wasteful to keep her alive.. I assume she's not as most states allow doctors to terminate care in a brain dead patients regardless of the patient's family.. under the "futile care" premise.

People need to remember that a human heart doesn't need a brain to beat. It would do so on a table outside the human body as long it was supplied with oxygen. (which is the case with Shiavo since her respiratory reflex is intact. (this doesn't involve the cortex or "thinking Center".. Think of it as a knee reflex that involves the spine, not the brain.

Suggested reading:this (http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/order_nov_22_2002.html) to get the details and judgement from the case in 2003. It pretty much answers your questions.

[Pispas]

I'm not going to deny her parents from their side. He has blocked them for the past 8 months from even seeing her and kicked them out right after the tube was taken out today. He's a piece of shit in my eyes.Actually, I saw the guy first time on telly (Larry King) yesterday; I got this instinct thing about getting someone's 'character', vibe, whatever you might call it right to 99.99% from the get go. I don't trust the guy.

I'm ALL for euthanasia (yes, it's legal where I live ...), and I would top myself if I ever got an incurable and painful disease, before I'd put myself at the mercy of some overworked shitheads in a hospice; but if that woman isn't in PAIN (!) and her parents want to take care of her for another 15 years, why not? She seems well taken care of, compared to many less fortunate terminally ill patients without family, etc., who are literally left lying in their own shit.

It seems it's only the husband's word that ''she wants to die''. My main criteria is if she is in pain. This doesn't seem to be the case; so I don't get the obsession with the hubby wanting to see her under the ground. He doesn't stand to inherit anything, does he?

Elli, where is Doom's post?

I don't have kids, but I can understand that the parents want to hold on to their child as long as possible. Oh, and removing the feeding tube is horrendous. This is something I don't get at all. If the court thinks she should die, then an injection would be nice, instead of starvation. Weirder than weird!

And I'm pro-choice and anti-death penalty, just to confuse ya's all. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif


-----------------


There was another case, I can't remember if it was in Britain or the US, with a couple, where the woman suffered horrendously, fully conscious and kept begging to be euthanized. Her husband and she both have been fighting for years to let her be put out of her pain. My brain fails me as to what happened now, but this was a case, where I would have said: YES, definitely.

[Loopy]

Actually, I saw the guy first time on telly (Larry King) yesterday; I got this instinct thing about getting someone's 'character', vibe, whatever you might call it right to 99.99% from the get go. I don't trust the guy.



So what, we gonna ignore all the Court Findings because you get bad "vibes" from the guy?

Oy!

Let me ask you something, O Respected Pispas...if you were him, and you were trying somehow to pull some sort of scam, would you go through that many trials (6, I think) and face down the Executive and Legislative Branches of the United States or back the hell off?

Since when did all three Branches get involved in family legal issues on an individual basis?

[DC Penguin]

She has now been seized as a mindless pawn in a ruthless opportunistic political scam that transcends ethics and medicine, but I don't believe Mrs Schiavo's parents have claimed that she had ever expressed any such wish.

Perhaps someone might provide a quotation to alter my impression?j

My only alteration would be this . . . she is a victim of the press and politics. If she wasn't the victim of so much media attention, then the politicians would have left her alone. For what it's worth, though, I'm also outraged that the Federal Government interceded. That is an abuse of power that is grossly wrong in my book. Anyone know who the individual actors were who executed this sham???

[Elli]

Yep.



Suggested reading:this (http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/order_nov_22_2002.html) to get the details and judgement from the case in 2003. It pretty much answers your questions.

Thanks for the link to that Order. I had been perusing the other documents in the case and hadn't read that one yet.


The Mandate requires something more than a belief, hope or "some" improvement. It requires this court to find, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the treatment offers such sufficient promise of increased cognitive function in Mrs. Schiavo's cerebral cortex so as to significantly improve her quality of life. There is no such testimony, much less a preponderance of the evidence to that effect. The other doctors, by contrast, all testified that there was no treatment available to improve her quality of life.

[wanderer]

Everyone needs to do the same thing. This poor woman's life has turned into a media circus.

And you can thank the media, rightwinglunatics and loathsome bible thumpers for not missing a beat in turning Mrs. Schiavo's tragedy into a farce! After all, why would anybody waste their time on serious business (digging up Alaska, the budget, delay's ethics problems, deficit, Iraq's going nowhere fiasco...) when they have a world class diversion on their hands!



You'd be surprised how much suffering families heap upon their loved ones.

No, I wouldn't be surprised. I've seen enough of "pro-life" fanatics who know nothing about love, life or living. Saying good bye to my wife was the most painful thing I will ever have to do, but I did it because I adored her and it was the right thing to do for HER, not for me... My tom cat has superior maternal instincts to that crazy old bag passing herself off as Mrs. Schiavo's mother!

[Pispas]

So what, we gonna ignore all the Court Findings because you get bad "vibes" from the guy?

Oy!

Let me ask you something, O Respected Pispas...if you were him, and you were trying somehow to pull some sort of scam, would you go through that many trials (6, I think) and face down the Executive and Legislative Branches of the United States or back the hell off?

Since when did all three Branches get involved in family legal issues on an individual basis?How's about you concentrate on the rest of my post, which has slightly more substance and substantiation as to why I think ''why not let her live''; and stop picking your nose, Karl.

-------------

Edit: As to why Congress got involved here, you're a Yank, aren't you, YOU tell me?

[Loopy]

j

My only alteration would be this . . . she is a victim of the press and politics. If she wasn't the victim of so much media attention, then the politicians would have left her alone. For what it's worth, though, I'm also outraged that the Federal Government interceded. That is an abuse of power that is grossly wrong in my book. Anyone know who the individual actors were who executed this sham???


Well, DeLay is the Front Man. Since the RNC distributed talking points to the rep's this morning, it's been clear that it's a politically driven move. Imagine our surprise, shock and outrage. Biz as usual. I'm sure it'll take Monday to sort out...I'm hearing the vote is going at 12:01 AM.

[Loopy]

How's about you concentrate on the rest of my post, which has slightly more substance and substantiation as to why I think ''why not let her live''; and stop picking your nose, Karl.

-------------

Edit: As to why Congress got involved here, you're a Yank, aren't you, YOU tell me?

With all due respect, it's not your opinion that decides what happens in a court of law. It's the Judge's opinion that counts. That's where I'm looking at this from. Me tell you why? OK. They believe they can set a new precedent in interfering in the personal lives of US citizens and are politicizing the hell out of this poor woman.

[Elli]

but if that woman isn't in PAIN (!) and her parents want to take care of her for another 15 years, why not? She seems well taken care of, compared to many less fortunate terminally ill patients without family, etc., who are literally left lying in their own shit.


Regarding the husband, I don't agree with a lot of what he has done. But, I'm not in their shoes to know the emotional pain of the entire thing. This case has divided a family who now all have so much animosity. Also, after doing more reading on this today, I'm not so sure what allegations that have been made have been borne out of this anger. He has never been charged with anything in the 15 years that she has been in this state, and it seems the allegations towards him all started when he decided, along with her doctor's, that she will not ever come out of this state.

How do we know if someone is feeling pain or not if they are in a vegetative state? Is that something that can actually be assessed? Maybe Doc or Spleen can answer that one. Why not let her parents take care of her? That's the basis of the whole case and the whole fight. That is not her wishes to live in this existence according to her husband.

Our Hospice is very good in the states from my own experience with a couple of family member's who have passed and were in their care. Hospice would keep her comfortable with Morphine, but yes, I agree with you that if they are going to do it, I wish they could do it as you suggested. Even though it sounds cruel and cold, why prolong and drag it out for her. As you can tell, I am for euthenasia as well.

Doc's post is a page or two back.

[wisewolves]

I guess i feel the need to put in my 2 cents on this topic, though i am not certain i have FULLY come to terms with my feelings on the matter.
In one sense i believe that the husband should have turned her over to her parents and went on with his life. And that it should be her parents choice, but i feel this way as a parent.
My true feelings are different than a lot of Republicans, but i am not alone, i know many who have the same feelings i do about this. And it really has nothing to do with how her husband feels, or how her parents feel, it has to do with the government stepping into an area they do not belong in my opinion. I honestly am angry that so much money, tax payer money, mind you has been spent on this case, and i am angry that congress feels it necessary to spend their time debating this, when there are so many things that truly AFFECT us all that they should be staying late for, you dont see them putting off vacations and staying up til midnight to pass something to increase the minimum wage, or to find a soloution to the gas prices. I dont see them spending extra dollars coming to a conclusion on the cost of medical care. So why are they spending my tax dollars on this case? in a sense though i hate to say it some of you dems are right, its all about the politics. People started whining and out they came. But hell dont we all whine every day when we fill our tank with gas? or when we get our paychecks and realize that our cost for medical insurance is so high we could pay our mtg payment with what we pay in only OUR share each month?
Terry Schiavo was bulimic, that much is known, supposedly because of this her potassium levels skyrocketed and caused her heart to stop, that is why she has lived 15+years in this condition. Why it became an issue in the last 4 or 5 years is beyond my comprehension. I have seen the videos of her over and over, and if i see the Balloon one more time i am going to scream! NO from what i understand she hasnt had speech therapy, there hasnt been an MRI done, she does blink and supposedly she makes noises at times when people talk to her. This is still a personal decision and a personal fight, I do agree with the doctor that posted earlier, he stated that if there is a doubt about the patients wishes it is been basically ordered that you err in the right, and keep her alive. But at who's expense? Her husband won a 2 million dollar lawsuit, and that money has gone to her care, her insurance is exhausted, i believe she has a small life insurance policy but nothing else. So who is paying to keep her alive? i assume she is on medicare.
The law also states that when a person marries, at least florida law does, that the Husband (or wife) is the one responsible for making any and all decisions, which is the way it should be, thats what marriage is.
I heard someone say he should walk away because he is an adulterer, yes he has another family, but its been 15+ freaking years. What was he supposed to do?
Anyway, my 2 cents stretched into about 50 cents.. sorry, i just wanted to say i guess that i believe the federal government has NO business stepping in here, this has been to the Florida courts to many times to count, let it end.
PROUD WIFE OF A US ARMY SOLDIER
LIn

[wanderer]

welcome back wanderer

Hello, Knightroar... Amazing what these mongrels will stoop to in and effort to change the subject from official business, eh? They must take Americans for a bunch of idiots... and why not they elected them, right? LOL

[Ono]

Debates in the U.S. House begins at 9:00 P.M. tonight

House will vote on Terri's Bill just after midnight

Subject: Terri Schiavo: Cruel and Unusual Government Sanctioned Murder OK - For the Innocent
Time: 6:48:15 PM EST

Terri Schiavo: Cruel and Unusual Government Sanctioned Murder OK - For the Innocent

by: Steve Yuhas



Congress adjourned on Palm Sunday without voting on whether or not they can craft legislation to stop an innocent woman from being starved to death at the behest of Florida judges and her “husband.” One would think that in a country where criminals on death row are afforded luxuries like television and time in the sun and where many believe that the death penalty is cruel and unusual punishment that they would join people who believe that starving an innocent woman to death is equally cruel, but not in America.



The case of Terri Schiavo is a tragic one that has been litigated to the end. Judges have decided that Terri’s “husband,” who has made children and lives with another woman, has the final say as to whether or not she die by removing her feeding tube, her only form of “life support” (support that is hardly support at all considering Terri lives on her own breath and heart beat).



It has been almost three days since Terri began the brutal and painful process of starving to death. Schiavo is not on “life support” as her former husband and his attorney continue to maintain; she is receiving the same thing through a tube that we give to prisoners condemned for killing other people through a hole in a prison cell door: food and water.



In amazing irony, Scott Peterson became the 644th inmate on California’s death row the same week that Schiavo’s feeding tube was ordered removed. If the past holds true for the future, the 32-year-old man who killed his wife and unborn child will be provided food and water until the tender age of 55 when his life will ultimately be taken for killing two innocent people.



Should Peterson be left to anguish for three weeks without food or water until his life ends or should the state continue to feed him? If the question about starving a person to death was about Scott Peterson every court and legislature would demand he be fed, but Terri Schiavo, an innocent victim of a heart attack, is being murdered by her “husband” and Florida in a most cruel and unusual way.



Michael Schiavo contends that during their marriage his wife said to him that she would not want to stay alive on life support. That is a wonderful thing considering that Terri is not on life support, but receiving nourishment at the hands of others – the same as a prisoner or a child. Unfortunately, courts decided otherwise and demanded that Terri’s parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, stand by and watch as their child is starved to death.



Nobody knowsthe true motive of Michael and why he would want to see a woman he ostensibly loved to go through the agony of starvation, but there is evil in his decision; an evil that we as a society will not burden our most heinous criminals with.



The United States Congress is attempting to save Terri Schiavo’s life, but in a remarkable twist of fate there are suddenly Democrats and Republicans who believe in states rights when it comes to court decisions. These are the same people who believe it is within the realm of Congressional necessity to regulate everything from how a person uses his or her private property to whether or not it is illegal to kill a toad or a bird.



Court decisions dealing with insignificant matters should be left to the states, but people in Congress are having difficulty deciding whether cruel and unusual sanctioned murder falls within their purview of responsibility. What a remarkable transformation for a Congress that inserts itself into every state matter every day of the week, but asking if it is cruel and unusual to starve the innocent is hard for them to decide.



What has happened to America that we have become a people who care so little about an innocent woman and say it is alright to starve her in what everyone knows will be an excruciating death, but believe that prisoners who kill their own wives and unborn children should receive that which is now being denied to an innocent woman: food?



Terri Schiavo is a living breathing human being and her “husband” and the courts in Florida want her to starve to death. Have we really become so callous about human life that it is perfectly alright to starve a woman to death while we coddle criminals and argue that states rights end the preservation of the woodpecker and certain toads, but not the life of an innocent human being?



If a person on death row in any state were to be killed by starvation and the withholding of food and water no state or federal judge would find that to be a constitutional manner of inflicting the ultimate punishment. The same standard should and must be applied to the innocent.



It is shameful that Bob and Mary Schindler will ultimately lose their daughter to an excruciating and long lasting death, but the questions will remain and Congress must act to take the initiative to remove from the repertoire of states rights the ability to starve a woman to death while her parents desire her to live and her “husband” has long since moved on to shack up and have children with another woman.



Michael Schiavo should have been removed from the equation when he stopped being her husband and if we are a nation that cares about life, we must begin to place the life of innocent human beings at the same level that we do criminals and turtles.





http://journals.aol.com/justice1949/JUSTICEFORTERRISCHIAVO/

[lotimer]

Debates in the U.S. House begins at 9:00 P.M. tonight

House will vote on Terri's Bill just after midnight


http://journals.aol.com/justice1949/JUSTICEFORTERRISCHIAVO/


Gotta love those big government republicans.

[Pispas]

With all due respect, it's not your opinion that decides what happens in a court of law. It's the Judge's opinion that counts. That's where I'm looking at this from. Me tell you why? OK. They believe they can set a new precedent in interfering in the personal lives of US citizens and are politicizing the hell out of this poor woman.Yes, silly buns; I know my opinion won't sway the matter one way or the other.

I wasn't really aware of the political hoopla and who picked up what. Just saw a women with parents who want to keep her around a little longer.

Another question: who IS paying for it?

As regards the political interference and apparent hijacking by certain fractions; I'm on your side here, Karly.

Ah, what the hell: KILL THE BITCH. Better?

PAIN, my main argument. Is she in PAIN? Forget the political crappola.

[Regis]

Mrs. Shiavo is about as innocent and pure of heart as one can be. who on this earth thinks THEY have the RIGHT to deny this good woman the eternal bliss God's peace in heaven?

[Regis]

By FORCING "good" people to LIVE this ethereal life, we DENY THEM the GIFT of HEAVEN.

[Catch]

-regis-

this woman has a right to life. it is not the will of the LORD for her to be murdered by the same liberals who support the murder of children. i hope congress intervenes before its too late to save this woman's life from activist judges

[Loopy]

Yes, silly buns; I know my opinion won't sway the matter one way or the other.

I wasn't really aware of the political hoopla and who picked up what. Just saw a women with parents who want to keep her around a little longer.

Another question: who IS paying for it?

As regards the political interference and apparent hijacking by certain fractions; I'm on your side here, Karly.

Ah, what the hell: KILL THE BITCH. Better?

PAIN, my main argument. Is she in PAIN? Forget the political crappola.

Ask her. She won't be able to answer, though.

And I can't forget or ignore the "political crappola" as it's happening right now.

Hey, let's read about what happened last week in good ol' Tom DeLay's state:

March 15, 2005, 8:16PM
Baby born with fatal defect dies after removal from life support
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open and smacked his lips, according to his mother.

Then at 2 p.m. today, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his Sept. 25 birth. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

"I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months .... They made a terrible mistake."

Sun's death marks the first time a hospital has been allowed by a U.S. judge to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

"This isn't murder. It's mercy and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. "It's sad this (Sun Hudson case) dragged on for so long. It's always sad when an infant dies. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive."

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an emergency appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four more weeks.

Texas law allows that hospitals can discontinue life sustaining care, even if patient family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.

Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun. Without legal delays, Sun's care would have ended Nov. 28.

Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too tiny to sustain his body, doctors said. Nearly all babies born with the incurable condition, often diagnosed in utero, die shortly after birth, genetic counselors say.

Sun was delivered full-term at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, but Hudson, 33, said she had no prenatal care during which his condition might have been discovered. He was put on a ventilator while doctors figured out what was wrong with him, and Hudson refused when doctors recommending withdrawing treatment.

"From the time Sun was born ... he was on life support because his chest cavity and lungs could not grow and develop the capacity to support his body. He was slowly suffocating to death," Texas Children's said in a statement today.

Texas Children's contended that continuing care for Sun was medically inappropriate, prolonged suffering and violated physician ethics. Hudson argued her son just needed more time to grow and be weaned from the ventilator.

Source (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934)

Anybody from the Christian fundie whackos going after DeLay for this shit?

I think not.

[Elli]

Debates in the U.S. House begins at 9:00 P.M. tonight

House will vote on Terri's Bill just after midnight

Subject: Terri Schiavo: Cruel and Unusual Government Sanctioned Murder OK - For the Innocent
Time: 6:48:15 PM EST

http://journals.aol.com/justice1949/JUSTICEFORTERRISCHIAVO/

This is horrible for all of us who wish to die with dignity if we were ever in Mrs. Schiavo's condition without a living will drawn. This takes away our rights and those of our families.

[Regis]

-regis-

this woman has a right to life. it is not the will of the LORD for her to be murdered by the same liberals who support the murder of children. i hope congress intervenes before its too late to save this woman's life from activist judges

She lost her "Life" a very long time ago, and now has an "existence" for the purpose of political distraction.
Let the woman die in peace with dignity. I say this not out of politics or religion but as someone who is extremely sick and GRATEFUL that I will not be keep hanging around with a tube in my throat and out my colon because I have the "right to live", bullshit, she has the right to her dignity and should be allowed to pass.

[Catch]

-elli-

what about this woman's rights?? congress is protecting the constitutional right of this woman to LIVE. leftwing activist judges want to murder her for evil reasons i cant possibly understand. congress MUST step up and protect America from activist judges

[Pispas]

this woman has a right to life. it is not the will of the LORD for her to be murdered by the same liberals who support the murder of children. i hope congress intervenes before its too late to save this woman's life from activist judgesOh, you've spoken to the LORD? Come to think of it -- he hasn't performed a miracle since ..... errrrr, the fish feeding frenzy, the water dance. Would THIS be perfect timing to grace us with another miracle. Let Mrs. S. speak.

I bet you 100000 dollars that the LORD won't turn up. He's pre-occupied with Mary. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

[Ono]

Senate Approves Bill in Right to Die Case

Sun Mar 20, 2005 05:40 PM ET
By Donna Smith

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Senate on Sunday unanimously passed legislation aimed at prolonging the life of a brain-damaged woman, Terri Schiavo, in an extraordinary intervention by Congress to move the Florida case into the jurisdiction of federal courts.

President Bush cut short a Texas vacation and flew back to Washington to sign the bill as soon as it passes both houses of Congress.

The House of Representatives is expected to take up the same bill and pass it early Monday morning after a brief delay caused by objections by some Democrats who said it put Congress in the middle of a family dispute and undermined state rights.

The 41-year-old woman's feeding tube was removed on Friday under a Florida state court order. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican, said he expected the state courts to order feeding be resumed so Schiavo could stay alive while the case was pursued in federal courts.

"We in the Senate recognize that it is extraordinary that we as a body act," Frist said. "But these are extraordinary circumstances that center on the most fundamental of human values and virtues, the sanctity of human life."

CONTINUED:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=7953363

[Elli]

-elli-

what about this woman's rights?? congress is protecting the constitutional right of this woman to LIVE. leftwing activist judges want to murder her for evil reasons i cant possibly understand. congress MUST step up and protect America from activist judges

Her right to die is being violated. She is being kept alive by an artificial means. Without that artificial means, she dies a natural death, not murder.

[Loopy]

-elli-

what about this woman's rights?? congress is protecting the constitutional right of this woman to LIVE. leftwing activist judges want to murder her for evil reasons i cant possibly understand. congress MUST step up and protect America from activist judges

This clown is a bona fide operative. No point bothering to discuss anything.

The least you could do, Catch, would be to put it in your own terms rather than the talking points of the day. What a fucking shill.

[Pispas]

-elli-

what about this woman's rights?? congress is protecting the constitutional right of this woman to LIVE. leftwing activist judges want to murder her for evil reasons i cant possibly understand. congress MUST step up and protect America from activist judgesCan't you guys not deal with a single goddamned affair without turning it into a leftwing murdering activist fraction or a jesus-loving, squeaky-clean moral crusader contingent? Sigh ....

[Loopy]

C'mon, Bushies, any comment on the case of the Texas kid? Where's your outrage n that one?

[Loopy]

Can't you guys not deal with a single goddamned affair without turning it into a leftwing murdering activist fraction or a jesus-loving, squeaky-clean moral crusader contingent? Sigh ....

We don't turn it into that, we are discussing the varying sides' moves to do that. But a direct answer to your question: Not until the reality of the situation changes.

[Pispas]

Mrs. Shiavo is about as innocent and pure of heart as one can be. who on this earth thinks THEY have the RIGHT to deny this good woman the eternal bliss God's peace in heaven?Huh? You haven't turned religimus on me? ;)

[Catch]

-karl rove-

this coming from a man who uses a photoshopped image of a Bush admin official as his avatar and does nothing but bash Bush by posting leftwing articles everywhere and bash our troops. thats rich

-pispas-

if it quacks like a duck it is a duck. the judges that ruled to murder this woman have a history of being easy on murderers and criminals in general and exhibit extreme leftwing views. some views more leftwing than michael moore! i call it as it is. these judges are activist judges trying to undermine America from the bench

-elli-

http://www.theempirejournal.com/0319054_terri_schiavo_says_she_w.htm
there is evidence she wants to live but there is NO evidence she wants to be murdered

[Eat Me]

Who's gonna pay to keep this blob of human vegitation alive???? Is Europe gonna pay for it? If not, then all the EUrotrash on IH should shat the fack ap!!!

[Loopy]

-karl rove-

this coming from a man who uses a photoshopped image of a Bush admin official as his avatar and does nothing but bash Bush by posting leftwing articles everywhere and bash our troops. thats rich


This coming from an entity of some sort which chooses to use the face of a bloated, splotchy blustering numbskull whose words it takes as gospel.

That's rich.

[Elli]

Here are the Living Will and other Advanced Directives documents in Word format for anyone who wishes to have a living will. In light of today's congressional activities, you better have one filled out if you don't want the government determining that you will be kept alive by artificial means for 15 - 60 years.