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Strike4ce
03-11-2005, 01:30 AM
Pro-War Conservatives Predicted Iraq Would Help Spread Democracy In The Middle East
Along with the election in Iraq, we've seen Lebanese protests for Democracy, Assad has agreed to at least partially pull Syrian troops out of Lebanon, & Mubarak agreed to the first ever multi-party elections in Egypt. Combine that with the recent Palestinian elections and Saudi foreign minister Saud al-Faisal's announcement (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050224/2005022410.html)that women may be able to vote in the "next round of municipal elections," and it's clear that even though the region has a long, long way to go, freedom is stirring in the Middle East in a way it never has before.

There seems to be a general consensus among people on the left and the right that SOMETHING is afoot, but while pro-war conservatives are giving a lot of the credit to George Bush for the invasion of Iraq and his determined efforts to help that country become free, not all, but many of our friends on the left are trying to portray what's happening as some sort of "happy accident."

However, nothing could be further from the truth. The fact is that many of us who are pro-war have been predicting all along that helping Iraq become a Democratic nation would be a pivotal event which would lead to the spread of freedom across the region. Therefore, it's rather difficult to credibly claim that what we're seeing is little more than coincidence given that so many pro-war conservatives predicted what would happen well before the election in Iraq took place.

Here are just a few quotes I managed to pull together that will prove to you what's going on today in the Middle East is no fluke:

"The press coverage and the criticisms of many Democrats seem based on an assumption that Iraq is somehow a rerun of Vietnam. But the facts on the ground in Iraq should not be squeezed into the Vietnam template. Progress is being made in establishing the first rule-of-law democracy in an Arab country-an example with the potential of changing the whole region for the better." -- Michael Barone (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/michael/barone073003.asp), 7/03/2003

"In all likelihood, Baghdad will be liberated by April. This may turn out to be one of those hinge moments in history--events like the storming of the Bastille or the fall of the Berlin Wall--after which everything is different. If the occupation goes well (admittedly a big if), it may mark the moment when the powerful antibiotic known as democracy was introduced into the diseased environment of the Middle East, and began to transform the region for the better." -- Max Boot (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/197abanc.asp), 2/10/2003

"A democratic Iraq would give hope to those who toil under the yoke of repressive regimes (e.g., Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia) that breed radicalism and hatred of America. An Iraqi democratic oasis could inspire freedom across the Muslim political desert." -- Peter Brookes (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/peterbrookes/pb20031103.shtml), 11/03/2003

"This is a massive and difficult undertaking -- it is worth our effort, it is worth our sacrifice, because we know the stakes. The failure of Iraqi democracy would embolden terrorists around the world, increase dangers to the American people, and extinguish the hopes of millions in the region. Iraqi democracy will succeed -- and that success will send forth the news, from Damascus to Teheran -- that freedom can be the future of every nation. The establishment of a free Iraq at the heart of the Middle East will be a watershed event in the global democratic revolution." -- George Bush (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/07/1068013365592.html?oneclick=true), 11/7/2003

"When Iraqis choose their own government in free elections, it will mark the first time in history when ordinary Arabs can claim to control their own destiny in their own nation. Syria's Assad, the Saudi royal family, even Jordan's Abdullah must be nervous as they watch events unfold. If the Iraqi people are capable of governing themselves, why not the Syrians, the Saudis or the Jordanians?" -- Linda Chavez (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/lindachavez/lc20040602.shtml), 6/02/2004

"No, the opposition never said it was wrong for Saddam to go. Rather, they rejected the notion that America should actually have its way. More than anything else, this desire to thwart America explains the motives of the U.N., the French, the Left, and pretty much everyone else except for the Arab leaders. The Arabs have something even bigger at stake should America succeed in transforming Iraq into a prosperous democracy — their own corrupt kleptocratic torture states might be next." -- Jonah Goldberg (http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:IUsrzxAFTPIJ:www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg200310200928.asp++site:www.nationalreview. com+iraq+democracy+region&hl=en), October 20, 2003

"If a beachhead of democracy can be established in Iraq, there's an excellent chance that we'll see Democratic reforms start to sweep across the region where anti-American tyrants are keeping their populations in control by the skin of their teeth. The influence of a free Iraq could in time help lead to a free Iran, a free Syria, a free Lebanon, a free Saudi Arabia, a free Egypt, etc. We're not just shooting for an Iraqi Democracy, we're hoping to see freedom spread across the entire region." -- John Hawkins (http://www.rightwingnews.com/john/whyiraq.php), 4/14/2004

"The dysfunctional societies of the Middle East will continue to breed terrorists unless Muslims can be shown a better way. A peaceful, democratic Iraq could transform the entire region. The task is difficult. But it is less difficult than was reconstructing Europe, and like the Marshall Plan, the rewards for success — and the penalties for failure — are enormous." -- Jack Kelly (http://www.jewishworldreview.com/1003/jkelly102103.asp), 10/21/2003

"A de-Saddamized Iraq with a decent government would revolutionize the region. It would provide friendly basing not just for the outward projection of American power but also for the outward projection of democratic and modernizing ideas," conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer wrote in Time magazine last week." -- Charles Krauthammer is quoted disapprovingly by Alan Elsner (http://www.drumbeat.mlaterz.net/Jan%20Feb%202003/Democratization%20of%20Iraq%20seen%20as%20unrealis tic%20021603a.htm) on 2/16/2003

"As you see, the Iranians are frantically increasing their efforts to drive Coalition forces out of Iraq, to wreck the Iraqi economy — and especially to inflate oil prices, which the mullahs hope will bring down the Bush presidency — and to destabilize the fragile Karzai government in Afghanistan. They, and their Syrian and Saudi allies, are doing this because the liberation of Iraq is indeed threatening the authority of the remaining terror masters in Tehran, Damascus, and Riadh. The entire region is bubbling from the heat of democratic revolution, and you can see the fears of the terror masters as they steadily increase the repression of their own people." -- Michael Ledeen (http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200406290922.asp), 6/29/2004

"For once in the Middle East, the United States has intervened on behalf of the people, not to prop up yet another regional autocrat. This profoundly liberal step could alter the usual anti-Western discourse in the region. It may gradually erode what professor Fouad Ajami of Johns Hopkins calls the "road rage" of a thwarted Arab world steeped in "a political tradition of belligerent self-pity." Some voices in the Arab world are already clear that freedom in one nation will create pressure for reforms in others. This "could be the beginning of transformation in the Arab region," said Tarek al-Absi, a Yemeni university professor -- a transformation, he added, that can't occur without Western help. Many hope that the first "demonstration effects" will be felt in Iran, where reformers hope for a breakthrough against a repressive regime. Anxiety must be rising among all the dictators in the neighborhood. Egypt's Hosni Mubarak is no Saddam Hussein, but there are pictures of Mubarak all over Egypt, and the destruction of the Saddam statues in Iraq must give him pause. Danielle Pletka, a Middle East expert at the American Enterprise Institute, said the area is full of leaders "who have not had the best interests of their people at heart. They should look at the Iraqi people and worry." -- John Leo (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnleo/jl20030421.shtml), 4/21/2003

"During the last few months the fear has often been expressed in Europe and America that democracy cannot succeed in Iraq. There is another, greater, and more urgent fear in the region--that it will succeed in Iraq, and this could become a mortal threat to the tyrants who rule most of the Middle East. An open and democratic regime in Iraq, inevitably with a Shiite majority, could arouse new hopes among the oppressed peoples of the region, and offer a corresponding threat to their oppressors." -- Bernard Lewis (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110003937), 8/29/2003

"Iraq is the strategic linchpin in the region and creating a decent pluralistic, pro-Western government there will create a new model for Middle East politics and pressure the surrounding governments. This was always the most compelling geo-strategic reason for the Iraq war, but it was usually overshadowed by others (WMD, U.N. compliance) and has been derided as “the domino theory.” Of course, other Arab governments aren’t just going to collapse if we succeed in Iraq. But if you want just a hint of how U.S. success there could have a subversive effect, consider the way other dictatorial Arab governments — dishonestly, but tellingly — have had to pay lip service to democracy in Iraq. Such words, even if insincere, have consequences..." -- Rich Lowry (http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry090803b.asp), 9/8/2003

"Similarly, (Richard) Perle has said that a reformed Iraq "has the potential to transform the thinking of people around the world about the potential for democracy, even in Arab countries where people have been disparaging of their potential." -- Richard Perle is quoted disapprovingly by Greg Miller (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/14/MN22108.DTL) on 3/14/2003

"(Paul) Wolfowitz has said that Iraq could be the first Arab democracy and that even modest democratic progress in Iraq would "cast a very large shadow, starting with Syria and Iran but across the whole Arab world." -- Paul Wolfowitz is quoted disapprovingly by Greg Miller (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/03/14/MN22108.DTL) on 3/14/2003

"Foreign policy gurus in the 1960s believed that communism would spread—the infamous “domino theory”—from one country to the next in top-down fashion. The opposite would hold true in the Middle East—bottom-up freedom movements would spread, toppling tyrants in the process. The old social contract—where people allowed the leaders to rule in exchange for basic necessities—is on the brink of collapse. When it does, democracy in Iraq will be the domino that triggers reform elsewhere. Call it the “democracy domino” theory." -- Joel Mowbray (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20030303.shtml), 3/03/2003

"The new regime in Turkey has pledged itself to a democratic policy that supports, but does not impose, Islamic values. They and the traditional Muslims of the world have a clear interest in the liberation of Iraq and the implantation of democracy, or, at least, the first steps toward the achievement of democracy. I will not tell you that Iraq can be turned into Connecticut in 24 hours. But I repeat my belief that Iraqis, and Arabs and Muslims in general, yearn to live in normal, stable, democratic societies. I believe the liberation of Iraq will provide a powerful incentive for the success of the rising democratic movement in Iran, and will lay a foundation for a transition in Saudi Arabia, to a constitutional and parliamentary monarchy on the Malaysian model." -- Stephen Schwartz (http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-schwartz020503.asp), 2/03/2003

"Well if (we were to get a functioning democracy going in Iraq), it would be positively transforming and it might well become the linchpin for the kind of reformation I've been saying is necessary. This is I think our great challenge and our great opportunity at the same time. It might not be as easy as we'd like and the people in Iraq might not be as thirsting for Democracy as the President might want or hope, but there's no doubt that if Democracy can succeed there it would be a major challenge to all the Islamic states in area, particularly Saudi Arabia and Iran." -- Robert Spencer (http://www.rightwingnews.com/interviews/spencer.php), 11/19/2003

"Sadly, a U.S. invasion of Iraq ''would threaten the whole stability of the Middle East''--or so Amr Moussa, secretary-general of the Arab League, told the BBC on Tuesday. Amr's talking points are so Sept. 10: It's supposed to destabilize the Middle East. The stability of the Middle East is unique in the non-democratic world and it's the lack of change in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt that's turned them into a fetid swamp of terrorist bottom-feeders." -- Mark Steyn (http://blogsofwar.blogspot.com/2002_08_01_blogsofwar_archive.html#79856955), 8/05/2002

"A free Iraq is already affecting the political landscape of the Middle East; a democratic Iraq could change the whole Arab world. The goal is worth fighting for. Despite the current difficulties in Iraq, The United States, Britain and other democratic nations should keep their eyes on the big picture." -- Amir Taheri (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/GuestColumns/printTaheri20030910.shtml), 9/10/2003


http://www.rightwingnews.com/

Motley
03-11-2005, 01:35 AM
http://www.rightwingnews.com/

Nice source. :rolleyes: You have a bunch of quotes from neocons & thats supposed to evidence of something?

Strike4ce
03-11-2005, 01:42 AM
Nice source. :rolleyes: You have a bunch of quotes from neocons & thats supposed to evidence of something?

I guess you're not that perceptive. Look at the world around you. Democracy is spreading and there is nothing you can do about it.

Strike4ce
03-11-2005, 01:44 AM
Pro-War Conservatives Predicted Iraq Would Help Spread Democracy In The Middle East
Along with the election in Iraq, we've seen Lebanese protests for Democracy, Assad has agreed to at least partially pull Syrian troops out of Lebanon, & Mubarak agreed to the first ever multi-party elections in Egypt. Combine that with the recent Palestinian elections and Saudi foreign minister Saud al-Faisal's announcement (http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050224/2005022410.html)that women may be able to vote in the "next round of municipal elections," and it's clear that even though the region has a long, long way to go, freedom is stirring in the Middle East in a way it never has before.

There seems to be a general consensus among people on the left and the right that SOMETHING is afoot, but while pro-war conservatives are giving a lot of the credit to George Bush for the invasion of Iraq and his determined efforts to help that country become free, not all, but many of our friends on the left are trying to portray what's happening as some sort of "happy accident."

Strike4ce
03-11-2005, 01:45 AM
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/050224/2005022410.html


Saudi Arabia might permit women to vote shortly; Straw urges reform
Saudi Arabia, Politics, 2/24/2005
The Saudi foreign minister Saud al-Faisal announced yesterday that women may be permitted to vote in the next round of municipal elections in the Kingdom.

Al-Faisal said in London, where he had met with his British peer Jack Straw and other officials, that the elections committee in his country had proposed women to take part in the next elections. He added "we will not be surprised if they take this measure in the second round of the elections." The first round of elections was held in Riyadh by the beginning of February and there are still two other rounds in March and April.

Al-Faisal also announced that his country will open during this year the door before women to work in the diplomatic and consulate field.

At the beginning of the meeting, each of al-Faisal and Straw commended each other but they said they have certain differences over certain issues like human rights and democratic reforms in the kingdom.

Straw considered that the challenge for Saudi Arabia is in the way of dealing with the reality of this changing world. He added "without reforms it would be frustrating" for Saudi citizens. The two sides also discussed bilateral relations, developments in the Middle east and the Palestinian question and conditions in Iraq and Lebanon.

Bman
03-11-2005, 01:46 AM
The Palestinians have been having elections since well before the start of the Iraq war

As far as Egypt goes.. didn't they have a democracy at one time?? Was Sadat an elected President?? I don't remember

As far as Lebanon goes, they already have a democracy I believe.. They have a Prime Minister and all of that, don't they??

Bman

Bman
03-11-2005, 01:47 AM
I guess you're not that perceptive. Look at the world around you. Democracy is spreading and there is nothing you can do about it.


I hope you're right.. but I'll believe it when I see it.. Democracy by invasion is extremely rare.. We'll see , however

Bman

Strike4ce
03-11-2005, 01:52 AM
I hope you're right.. but I'll believe it when I see it.. Democracy by invasion is extremely rare.. We'll see , however

Bman

At least we agree on something. You dont always have to be a doom and gloomer.

Bman
03-11-2005, 01:57 AM
At least we agree on something. You dont always have to be a doom and gloomer.


You'd be surprised.. I voted for Bush in 2000.. but he's a liar and a fraud.. I never changed. I'm still supporting the exact same policies I always have: smaller government, balanced budgets, strict interpretation of the Constitution, state's rights, the Bill of Rights, opposition to intervention in the affairs of foreign nations, and opposition to nation building.

Bush lead me to believe he was for that as well.. Turns out all he's for is the big corporations and he was willing to start a WAR of all things, on their behalf!!

Even Clinton (who I despise) didn't do that

Bman

Criminal Minded
03-11-2005, 02:09 AM
I guess you're not that perceptive. Look at the world around you. Democracy is spreading and there is nothing you can do about it.

What's more trippy is that a guy that wasn't liked by 30% of America can now demand nations to turn Democratic. President W. Bush has done a good thing since he took power.

Criminal Minded
03-11-2005, 02:10 AM
You'd be surprised.. I voted for Bush in 2000.. but he's a liar and a fraud.. I never changed. I'm still supporting the exact same policies I always have: smaller government, balanced budgets, strict interpretation of the Constitution, state's rights, the Bill of Rights, opposition to intervention in the affairs of foreign nations, and opposition to nation building.

Bush lead me to believe he was for that as well.. Turns out all he's for is the big corporations and he was willing to start a WAR of all things, on their behalf!!

Even Clinton (who I despise) didn't do that

Bman

Bman thanks for the Sig.

Pispas
03-11-2005, 09:57 AM
HEY STRIKEY! Remember my proposition.
Will you do it? It's 'that' time again.

Just say 'yay or nay'. I'm serious . One for every 100 to ease my whoring conscience. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

Bman
09-22-2006, 01:02 AM
Pro-War Conservatives Predicted Iraq Would Help Spread Democracy In The Middle East



They sure did.

Bman
09-22-2006, 01:37 AM
Iraq: torture ‘worse than ever’


MICHAEL SETTLE September 22 2006

TORTURE in Iraq is "completely out of hand" and could now be worse than under the tyrannical regime of Saddam Hussein, the United Nations human rights investigator claimed last night.

The view from Manfred Nowak came as the US military said the security situation on the ground had worsened with more violence. Overnight, a UN report showed Iraq was now deadlier than ever, with 6599 Iraqis dying violently in the last two months, 700 more than in the previous two.
Yesterday, 38 bodies were found dumped in Baghdad in an all too familiar picture in which death squads roam the streets, drag victims out of homes and shops, and kill them.

However, Dhi Qar became the second of 18 provinces to be handed back to the Iraqi security forces when Italian troops transferred control. Muthanna, also in the south, was handed back in July.

In Geneva, Mr Nowak, who has not personally visited Iraq, said he had credible reports of torture in facilities run by Iraqi forces as well as by the insurgents, who had kidnapped and killed hundreds of people since Saddam's overthrow in 2003. "The situation as such is extremely serious but it is not just torture by the government," said the UN investigator.

He cited reports of inhumane treatment in American and foreign-run detention centres but noted how conditions there seemed to have improved since an international furore broke over the maltreatment of prisoners by US forces at the notorious Abu Ghraib Prison.

The UN Assistance Mission in Iraq has urged the Iraqi government to invite Mr Nowak to investigate allegations of torture in prisons run by the US-led multinational force as well as by Iraq's Interior and Defence Ministries and by the militias.

It gave a gruesome account of conditions on the ground. Bodies found in the Baghdad morgue "often bear signs of severe torture including acid-induced injuries and burns caused by chemical substances, missing skin, broken bones - back, hands, and legs - missing eyes, missing teeth and wounds caused by power drills or nails".

Mr Nowak, who was in Switzerland yesterday to address the UN Human Rights Council, said he had held talks with Iraqi authorities in June about a fact-finding mission there but had not yet received an invitation. He told reporters yesterday: "The situation as far as torture is concerned in Iraq is now completely out of hand. It is so bad that many people say that it is worse than in the times of Saddam."

In Baghdad, George Casey, the leading American general in Iraq, explained that the conflict was changing from "an insurgency against us to a struggle for the division of political and economic power among the Iraqis".

He acknowledged that the security situation had become more difficult in the past few months and said Iraqi leaders must find common ground on key issues dividing the country, if progress was to be made.

On the ground yesterday, gunmen killed six Baghdad police in one attack and three in another in Baquba. Rockets fell on a house in the capital, killing five, and at least three bombs in the city killed another seven. The US military reported two soldiers killed.

US commanders predict violence will get worse next week when the holy month of Ramadan begins.

Meantime, the handing over of Dhi Qar to the Iraqis marked the end of the mission for the Italian contingent whose 1600 troops will be home within eight weeks.

"This is a great day in Iraq's history," declared Nouri al Maliki, the Iraqi Prime Minister, at the ceremony in a stadium in Nassiriya, the provincial capital.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/70610-print.shtml

Noovuss
09-22-2006, 01:42 AM
ABCNews' Brian Ross Bombshell: Absolutely No Doubt Coercive Interrogation Broke Prisoners, Saved Lives
– Ace

And among his sources were CIA agents who opposed the methods on legal or moral grounds -- but they agreed the techniques worked and saved lives. (http://hotair.com/archives/2006/09/20/bombshell-abc-independently-confirms-success-of-cia-torture-tactics/)

Strike4ce
09-22-2006, 03:19 AM
They sure did.
I guess they predicted wrong. Doesnt hurt to be hopeful and positive.

What is this bash Strike4ce day?

Bman
09-22-2006, 08:41 AM
I guess they predicted wrong. Doesnt hurt to be hopeful and positive.

What is this bash Strike4ce day?



No.. I wasn't trying to bash you.

I was just digging up some old threads on Iraq, to see how the situation has changed.

its nothing personal