Did you Know This About Iraq? [Archive]

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THX1138

03-07-2005, 03:13 PM

I don't know if all this is true, but most of it seems reasonable. True or not it is good subject matter for the even handed, intellectual discussions that take place on IH.

Did you know this?

Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2004 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq¹s Air Force consists of three operation squadrons, 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently?

http://braden.weblogger.com/2005/02/12

Alli

03-07-2005, 03:23 PM

Nice post THX, a welcome and refreshing view of the side the media refused to acknowledge.

Pispas

03-07-2005, 03:31 PM

I don't know if all this is true, but most of it seems reasonable. True or not it is good subject matter for the even handed, intelectual discussions that take place on IH.

Did you know this?

Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?

Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2004 for the re-established Fulbright program?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq¹s Air Force consists of three operation squadrons, 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 bell jet rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consist of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Did you know that 2 candidates in the Iraqi presidential election had a recent televised debate recently?

http://braden.weblogger.com/2005/02/12SIIIMOOOOOOON!

ProudAmerican

03-07-2005, 05:49 PM

Good post. Lets hear em criticize that.

SEVIL DOG

03-07-2005, 05:58 PM

Does the communist news paper New York times know this?

Pispas

03-07-2005, 06:00 PM

Good post. Lets hear em criticize that.Okay then; I don't have time to research details right now, but just for the heck of it, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the majority of the items listed were in existence BEFORE they got wiped out by a combo of sanctions and 'liberation'.

Inquisitor

03-07-2005, 06:15 PM

Okay then; I don't have time to research details right now, but just for the heck of it, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the majority of the items listed were in existence BEFORE they got wiped out by a combo of sanctions and 'liberation'.

Agreed - a comparison to pre-invasion Iraq would be interesting.

Rightwingnut

03-07-2005, 06:17 PM

Agreed - a comparison to pre-invasion Iraq would be interesting.

Actually it would be a waste of time. War kind of has a way of destroying infrastrcuture...so we can prolly all agree that said infrastructure was in MUCH better shape prior to the invasion.

That wasnt the point of the original post.

latent aaaack

03-07-2005, 06:20 PM

Okay then; I don't have time to research details right now, but just for the heck of it, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the majority of the items listed were in existence BEFORE they got wiped out by a combo of sanctions and 'liberation'.

Are you for or against the 1991 Iraq war? It was that wawr and it's ensuing isolation that caused Iraq's deterioration.

Pispas

03-07-2005, 06:38 PM

Are you for or against the 1991 Iraq war? It was that wawr and it's ensuing isolation that caused Iraq's deterioration.Against. Have I fallen out of grace now? http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

latent aaaack

03-07-2005, 06:46 PM

Against. Have I fallen out of grace now? http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

No it's just something to talk about if we have differing opinions, not something to cause disgrace. Some people are just too likeable anyway. There are complete assholes that I agree with politically but that I hate.

Inquisitor

03-07-2005, 06:52 PM

That wasnt the point of the original post.

I must have missed that... and it was?

Pispas

03-07-2005, 06:57 PM

Just wait till young Simon gets hold of this. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

latent aaaack

03-07-2005, 07:04 PM

Just wait till young Simon gets hold of this. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

Simon does have a way of finding the most ruthlessly negative interpretation of a subject. He'd be good to have on your side, I agree.

Rightwingnut

03-07-2005, 07:09 PM

I must have missed that... and it was?

Within the context of post invasion Iraq it highlights the good that is being done, but not reported by the mainstream media and ignored as propaganda by the leftista Ministry of Information.

Inquisitor

03-07-2005, 07:29 PM

Within the context of post invasion Iraq it highlights the good that is being done, but not reported by the mainstream media and ignored as propaganda by the leftista Ministry of Information.

Thats what I thought - my point being, that without comparison, those statements are meaningless.. aren't they?

If we are simply re-building what we destroyed in the invasion, then surely that isn't a 'highlight of the good that is being done'? Surely that is simply our responsibility to the country? Sure, it is good that we are rebuilding these things, but personally, I consider that my governments (and the US governments) duty to the people of Iraq. You break it, you bought it sort of idea.

I agree - there are many 'feel good' stories in Iraq that aren't reported, and that the negative stories are focused on; however I am interested to see a breakdown of the list is terms of pre and post invasion Iraq - only then can we gauge how 'true' this list is.

involved

03-07-2005, 07:48 PM

It sounds nice but how do you verify the list of happy places ?

pambo

03-07-2005, 08:18 PM

Here is what Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp) has to say ....

.

THX1138

03-07-2005, 08:42 PM

Hobbes

03-07-2005, 10:04 PM

I have to admit that the response to this post was quite measured and polite. I expected a much more heated debate.

However, having said that I found it equally interesting that Ahmed Kharrufa's responses in the Snopes response link ended with

"AND LET ME ADD.

AND IRAQ NOW IS A COMPLETE MESS

To summarize:

Yes things are getting better, but very slowly. In fact it is so slow that we are not expecting things to get back to normal in months to come."

I don't understand how things can be a "Complete mess" and be slowly getting better at the same time. I'm not sure they want the full "Normal" they had before.

But I can see they would be impatient even PO'd about plenty of things, but it does take some time to recreate "Normal" while people are still blowing it up.

It's hard to live without electricity, running water, food or a job.

It's easy to ask people to be patient, while you enjoy all of these things.

I don't think these claims have any basis in fact. I believe that most of the public works projects in the Sunni areas have been halted for lack of security. I understand that Fallujah is still largely destroyed. Fox news would have been happy to report these accomplishments if they actually happened.

THX1138

03-07-2005, 10:22 PM

It's easy to ask people to be patient, while you enjoy all of these things.

Do you have an option to asking them to be patient?

And the connection between my having these things and them not is akin to "Eat your beans, there are kids in China that would love to have them"

I couldn't give my beans to them then or my electricity to the Iraqi's now. All that is left is patience.

Hobbes

03-07-2005, 10:26 PM

Do you have an option to asking them to be patient?

And the connection between my having these things and them not is akin to "Eat your beans, there are kids in China that would love to have them"

I couldn't give my beans to them then or my electricity to the Iraqi's now. All that is left is patience.

Yes. Commit the amount of force it would take to crush the insurgency we created.

THX1138

03-07-2005, 10:32 PM

No argument there...

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 02:11 AM

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 02:14 AM

Yes. Commit the amount of force it would take to crush the insurgency we created.

What about the invasion Saddam created? Playing chicken with "A" Bush in power is funny stuff man. Lets look from the inside out. Look at the horrible crap Saddam has created since he took power 30 years ago. Millions dead.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 04:59 AM

Did you know a lot of those are exaggerated, false, give credit to the US where none is due and do not give any comparison to the situation under Saddam Hussein as to evaluate whether that figure is better or worse?

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 05:02 AM

huh?

Simon666

03-08-2005, 05:35 AM

huh?
Like in categories: figures given without figures to compare how the situation under Saddam was. That is a classical propaganda deception trick: give figures which don't allow to assess a correct evaluation.

Did you know that the Iraqi government employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are now under construction and 38 new schools have been built in Iraq?

Did you know that Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational? They have 5- 100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a navel infantry regiment.

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
The Iraqi government employed even more people under Saddam and bragging how many people the government employs is not exactly something any capitalist nation should be proud of. As far as the building of schools is concerned, it isn't mentioned how many schools were built under Saddam and that the renovation was often done sloppy (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11120). That Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers was most likely already the case under Saddam. The Iraqi police is less numerous than under Saddam and is incapable of doing much about the current crimewave that is much worse than under Saddam, on the bright side less police officers means less torturers. Also, the 4,3 million schoolchildren figure is also given without comparisons to the situation under Saddam, it is reported school attendance (http://www.cidi.org/humanitarian/hsr/iraq/ixl90.html) has actually decreased as many people keep their children home due to the violence.

======================================

Another trick is giving credit to the US where none is due.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
The polio campaign is an initiative of the UN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/18/sprj.irq.polio.ap/), not the US, that already started under Saddam.

======================================

Another trick is to give completely false information:

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?
Actually, that figure is the total number of telephone subscribers, cell phone subscribers are 315,000. (http://www.kurdistancorporation.com/communication_overview.html) I'd bet if you'd spend the time looking into a lot of the other figures mentioned, you could find similar attempts at deception.

======================================

Another trick is to give information that doesn't matter like the example below. What does that matter for the Iraqis when unemployment has skyrocketed thanks to the US invasion?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

PIGFUCKBINLADEN

03-08-2005, 05:37 AM

Like in categories: figures given without figures to compare how the situation under Saddam was. That is a classical propaganda deception trick: give figures which don't allow to assess a correct evaluation.

The Iraqi government employed even more people under Saddam and bragging how many people the government employs is not exactly something any capitalist nation should be proud of. As far as the building of schools is concerned, it isn't mentioned how many schools were built under Saddam and that the renovation was often done sloppy (http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11120). That Iraq¹s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers was most likely already the case under Saddam. The Iraqi police is less numerous than under Saddam and is incapable of doing much about the current crimewave that is much worse than under Saddam, on the bright side less police officers means less torturers. Also, the 4,3 million schoolchildren figure is also given without comparisons to the situation under Saddam, it is reported school attendance (http://www.cidi.org/humanitarian/hsr/iraq/ixl90.html) has actually decreased as many people keep their children home due to the violence.

======================================

Another trick is giving credit to the US where none is due.

The polio campaign is an initiative of the UN (http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/02/18/sprj.irq.polio.ap/), not the US, that already started under Saddam.

======================================

Another trick is to give completely false information:

Actually, that figure is the total number of telephone subscribers, cell phone subscribers are 315,000. (http://www.kurdistancorporation.com/communication_overview.html) I'd bet if you'd spend the time looking into a lot of the other figures mentioned, you could find similar attempts at deception.

======================================

Another trick is to give information that doesn't matter like the example
below. What does that matter for the Iraqis when unemployment has skyrocketed thanks to the US invasion?

Huh??

Simon666

03-08-2005, 05:46 AM

Huh??
Short story: it is a transparent poor attempt at - by means of deception - painting a more positive picture of Iraq than by those damned "liberal media" .

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 06:12 AM

Pispas

03-08-2005, 06:26 AM

Here is what Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp) has to say ..... I just read this list on Snopes and if I hadn’t been ‘warned’, I’d have taken it for satire. A couple of things struck me as particularly funny.

Foreign journalists (and everyone else) are free to come and go.

To be kidnapped, decaptivated, murdered or accidentally bumped off by ‘friendly fire’.

Let’s hear a big “Hurray for the freedom of the press”!

Foreign journalists aren't on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for minders and other government spies.
LOL, true. Now the fees (from a few hundred to several million bucks) are being paid to the cops, kidnappers and/or to newly produced terrorists directly.

On Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts - exceeding the prewar average.
Most of it to illuminate ‘peace-time’-related sites, such as lighting up bases, government buildings and other potential ‘hits’?

According to people living in BAGDAD (!), some neighbourhoods still have a whopping 3-4 hours electricity a day.

Note that in pre-war Iraq, Saddam – for reasons best beknownst to himself - had seen fit to provide even the most outlying shithole with well-functioning 24-hour/day electricity and water pipes.

Doctors salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.
Let's hear it for Inflation at its finest?

There is no Ministry of Information.
And this must be THE saddest thing! http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 06:29 AM

Help them then Mr. concerned citizen. The insurgents are treating them better I see. Falluja was and is a booming town.

Pispas

03-08-2005, 06:30 AM

Simon666

03-08-2005, 06:37 AM

Simon666 all you're saying is "trick, trick, trick, deception, america the evil" If Iraq was covered in gold right now I really don't think it would please you either way. You see every gram of bad news in what America does. I think the person who started this thread was only trying to show some of us that it's not all sand and rats over there.
The US government isn't a humanitarian organization pal. It's only interests are the well being of those that got them voted in and that's not the public as much as special interest groups and the companies they are from and that made their campaign possible. What you're doing here is frustrating your ventilation about my continuous criticism. Well grow up and live with it and if you have issues with it, refute the points that you feel are incorrect. I made a number of justified remarks and you can be pissed off all you want, in the end my remarks are still correct and to the point.

Pispas

03-08-2005, 06:49 AM

I's warned ya' .... http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 06:53 AM

The US government isn't a humanitarian organization pal. It's only interests are the well being of those that got them voted in and that's not the public as much as special interest groups and the companies they are from and that made their campaign possible. What you're doing here is frustrating your ventilation about my continuous criticism. Well grow up and live with it and if you have issues with it, refute the points that you feel are incorrect. I made a number of justified remarks and you can be pissed off all you want, in the end my remarks are still correct and to the point.

You are getting mad and acussing me of doing so. Ironic. I never said the American government were angels Mr. Simon. Like I stated, you can sure see every gram of evil in the US government. I thought the government were made of humans. Humans aren't perfect. No I don't need to grow up Mr. Simon666. No I'm not frustrating my ventilation about your continuous criticism. You are wrong. Very wrong. It seems you are the one I am frustrating. No I am not pissed off. You are wrong Mr. Simon666. Bad judgment skills. I have and never stated that the US gov is perfect and all so Holy. I only claim that we are doing a good job over there. Good job. Get it? Good job. You can choose to have your head in the toilet full of cow dung or in the wind full of hope and peace. As I can see Simon666 your face is brown.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 07:03 AM

I only claim that we are doing a good job over there. Good job. Get it? Good job.
Too bad we don't see much of it and what we are led to believe is evidence of a good job is deception as in the original post. If the truth is a toilet full of cow dung, then I'll walk around with a brown face with pride.

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 07:16 AM

Too bad we don't see much of it and what we are led to believe is evidence of a good job is deception as in the original post. If the truth is a toilet full of cow dung, then I'll walk around with a brown face with pride.

Come on man. You make it seem as if the USA's manifesto is 100% tricks and deception. Evil USA. Naughty USA. Evil USA. Who's the one with 666 in their name? Your type choose to see the dark side of the Ying and the Yang. You have dung on your face and force yourself to be proud of it. Your breed were the ones defeated with Hitler. Hitler would have killed everyone with a skin shade. You my man are no better than Saddam. No wonder you hate Americans.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 07:20 AM

You make it seem as if the USA's manifesto is 100% tricks and deception.
No I didn't, I believe that the extreme right which tries to depict it as a huge success is using close to 100% tricks and deception.

Evil USA. Naughty USA. Evil USA. Who's the one with 666 in their name?
Exactly which part of my posts says the US is evil? The US government is'nt exactly good - far from - if you ask me but you admitted yourself they're no angels.

Your breed were the ones defeated with Hitler. Hitler would have killed everyone with a skin shade. You my man are no better than Saddam. No wonder you hate Americans.
I don't hate Americans, the US government will do. As a matter of fact, if I'd go on vacation, I'd plan to go to the US before visiting any other countries. Not that you'd welcome me.

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 07:24 AM

No I didn't, I believe that the extreme right which tries to depict it as a huge success is using close to 100% tricks and deception.

Exactly which part of my posts says the US is evil? The US government is'nt exactly good - far from - if you ask me but you admitted yourself they're no angels.

I don't hate Americans, the US government will do. As a matter of fact, if I'd go on vacation, I'd plan to go to the US before visiting any other countries. Not that you'd welcome me.

America has come up with the best system of any government in history. You IMPLY that we are out to do what Hitler did. Wrong. America welcomes you and your false teachings anyday Siomn666. Hell we even taught the Highjackers to fly. Tell me that isn't freedom.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 07:35 AM

America has come up with the best system of any government in history.
It's not the best, perhaps most people in the US consider it the best but good for them. Other systems may be best for other people. Every system has its advantages as well as disadvantages. The notion that you think your system is best in absolute terms, shows to me you're ideologically blinded and a nationalist. Like Hitler, which you like to mention so often in your anger directed at my address.

You IMPLY that we are out to do what Hitler did. Wrong. America welcomes you and your false teachings anyday Simon666. Hell we even taught the Highjackers to fly. Tell me that isn't freedom.
Exactly how did I imply that you are out to do what Hitler did, could you be more specific in your accusation, substantiate that claim just a little?

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 07:40 AM

It's not the best, perhaps most people in the US consider it the best but good for them. Other systems may be best for other people. Every system has its advantages as well as disadvantages. The notion that you think your system is best in absolute terms, shows to me you're ideologically blinded and a nationalist. Like Hitler, which you like to mention so often in your anger directed at my address.

Isn't it like so funny that the former slaves didn't want to go back to Africa? Isn't it funny a land that once enslaved you was a good place to stay? Not even the Jews stayed in Egypt or Babylon. Isn't it funny every race and their momma is COMING TO AMERICA.

Exactly how did I imply that you are out to do what Hitler did, could you be more specific in your accusation, substantiate that claim just a little?

You stated that we are full of tricks and deception. You stated we are out for selfish reasons. You imply this is for Jews and oil............................................... ....... Just........................... like .......................................Hitler..... .........................did!

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 07:42 AM

I have to go Simon666. I have been here way too long. Hugs and kisses from America the Satan. It was nice chatting.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 07:50 AM

Isn't it like so funny that the former slaves didn't want to go back to Africa? Isn't it funny a land that once enslaved you was a good place to stay? Not even the Jews stayed in Egypt or Babylon. Isn't it funny every race and their momma is COMING TO AMERICA.
A lot of jews stayed in Babylon, you just don't read about them in the bible. That the jews were a people of slaves in Egypt further isn't supported by history but is one of those bible fairy tales. It is also a very poor justification, Belgians have committed large scale atrocities in Congo but I'm not lauding the fact that any sane minded Congolese prefers Belgium over Congo as proof of our goodness.

You stated that we are full of tricks and deception. You stated we are out for selfish reasons. You imply this is for Jews and oil............................................... ....... Just........................... like .......................................Hitler..... .........................did!
Show me the quotes where I said just that. And you'd be nuts if you deny that oil and Israel played no factor.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 07:51 AM

It was nice chatting.
If you're hoping it was as good to me as it was to you: it wasn't. :mad_01:

Pispas

03-08-2005, 08:16 AM

Are you both smoking a cigarette yet?

T3D

03-08-2005, 08:18 AM

hahaha
yeah that sounded a liittle.....gay

Pispas

03-08-2005, 08:35 AM

[continuation from post # 35]

too late, you missed it.

THX1138

03-08-2005, 11:16 AM

Pispas proves again that one can use many, many words and say absolutely nothing.

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 11:18 AM

There is breaking news at http://www.cnn.com/ about Clinton going under the knife again.

Criminal Minded

03-08-2005, 11:20 AM

If you're hoping it was as good to me as it was to you: it wasn't. :mad_01:

I have to disagree with you. You love to reply to my posts. I will have to leave again in 1 hour. I won't be back until tomorrow though. I hope you don't miss me Simon666.

Pispas

03-08-2005, 11:28 AM

Pispas proves again that one can use many, many words and say absolutely nothing.Uh, don't jump the gun [no pun intended] just yet. There actually IS a point to this whole exercise. I'm going for a slow but thundering climax. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

By the way, these are not MY words (I wish). These are the words of an American National Guardsman, stationed in Ayrak.

clavin42

03-08-2005, 11:47 AM

Claim: Messages chronicle U.S. accomplishments in rebuilding Iraq since the end of major combat.

Status: Undetermined.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

Hobbes

03-08-2005, 11:55 AM

Uh, don't jump the gun [no pun intended] just yet. There actually IS a point to this whole exercise. I'm going for a slow but thundering climax. http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/Kwandee/terrific.gif

By the way, these are not MY words (I wish). These are the words of an American National Guardsman, stationed in Ayrak.

You are trusting the words of a guy who doesn't know what a "firing pin retaining spring" is...

It's the thing that keeps the firing pin from striking the primer when a round is chambered.

Methinks perhaps he's an idiot... :sex_14:

knightroar

03-08-2005, 12:02 PM

Claim: Messages chronicle U.S. accomplishments in rebuilding Iraq since the end of major combat.

Status: Undetermined.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

Origins: Variations of these items chronicling U.S. accomplishments in rebuilding Iraq have been circulating since mid-2003 and have been forwarded under so many different names (most of them U.S. military personnel serving in Iraq) that it's difficult to determine who the original author was. The earliest known antecedent appears to be a Coalition Provisional Authority briefing given by L. Paul Bremer, the U.S. Presidential Envoy to Iraq (the highest-ranking U.S. civilian official in Iraq) on 9 October 2003. Some of the accomplishments cited in this piece were echoed in an 8 December 2003 Forbes magazine article by Caspar W. Weinberger, who served as Secretary of Defense during the Reagan administration.

There is a valid point underlying the theme of these messages, that the media tends to report (and the public tends to follow) stories having to do with disaster, tragedy and misfortune far more than stories about good deeds and good works. That has always been the nature of news reporting, however; it's not a new development fostered by the "Bush-hating media." (As one editorial writer put it in a commentary on this phenomenon, "Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn.")

These types of items are generally impossible to categorize with a single truth value because they typically contain a mixture of fact, opinion, subjective statements, inaccuracies, and literally true but often misleading claims. An Iraqi citizen whose response to the earlier piece quoted above was published on the Voices in the Wilderness web site chronicled some of the differences he saw between the claims the pieces offered and his viewpoint as an Iraqi.

http://vitw.org/archives/174

Pispas

03-08-2005, 12:17 PM

You are trusting the words of a guy who doesn't know what a "firing pin retaining spring" is...

It's the thing that keeps the firing pin from striking the primer when a round is chambered.

Methinks perhaps he's an idiot... :sex_14:Yep. We're a virtual pair made in heaven.

Screw Hollywood

03-08-2005, 12:19 PM

Okay then; I don't have time to research details right now, but just for the heck of it, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that the majority of the items listed were in existence BEFORE they got wiped out by a combo of sanctions and 'liberation'.
On the "sanctions"...America was being blamed for scores of Iraqi children dying from malnutrition and lack of medicine, while Saddam managed to build FOURTEEN new palaces in the decade of the 90's.

Simon666

03-08-2005, 12:34 PM

On the "sanctions"...America was being blamed for scores of Iraqi children dying from malnutrition and lack of medicine, while Saddam managed to build FOURTEEN new palaces in the decade of the 90's.
Food is bought abroad using foreign currency for which Iraq needs approval by the UN and needs to use oil money. So in order for that statement to actually mean something, you should provide evidence that those palaces were built using Oil For Food money instead of Iraqi currency which won't boost domestic food production.

knightroar

03-08-2005, 12:39 PM

Dear George,

Kathy asked me to give some comments to the letter you’ve forwarded her. I feel flattered that Kathy trusted my judgment that much, and I hope that I am worthy of her trust. I’ll do my best to comment on each point as accurately as possible.

But let me tell you very little about myself so that you can better evaluate my comments. I work in a private company and not for the government. I don’t have financial problems. And I never personally had a problem with the old regime (which does not mean that I wanted it to stay, on the contrary, having the old regime gone is the only good thing that has happened). And I have no relation whatsoever to any of the old or the new parties. So my comments reflects the way as I see things, which is hopefully correct and unbiased.

So below are my comments for each point in the letter.

>> Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1st… The first battalion of the new Iraqi Army has graduated and is on active duty. Over 60,000 Iraqis now provide security to their fellow citizens. nearly all of Iraq’s 400 courts are functioning.

But yet, we’ve never felt more insecure. Though the security is improving by time (regardless of bombing and terrorists attacks. I am only referring to robbery and kidnapping), but still Baghdad is still far from being considered a safe city. I started using my (relatively new) car few weeks ago after having kept it in my garage for about 6 month. I still never go out alone though, and I know of many who have not returned to using their new cars yet. What counts is: it has been over 8 months now and it’s still far from being safe enough.

>> The Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.

We certainly hope so, but no one is sure about that yet. Only time can prove whether our Judiciary system is really independent and just or not. And even then, one must wait till Iraqis say that their judiciary system is independent or not and definitely not the Americans.

>> On Monday, October 6 power generation hit 4,518 megawatts-exceeding the pre-war average.

Unfortunately I am not sure of the number for the pre-war average but let me give you some facts.

- Iraq’s power generation was about 10,000 MW before the first gulf war in 91.
- Now, Iraq’s power need is about 20,000 MW, and the 4,518 MW is only about a quarter of what we need. So at best we’ll have is about 6 hours a day during peak seasons.
- Before the war, Baghdad used to have an average of 18-24 hours a day in mid-summer and mid-winter. And it was almost full time during autumn and spring. Now, as an average, we have electricity of about 8 hours a day, and the best we had (for very short periods) is 12 hours a day, and that probably occurs when the weather is good or when some places have problems in the power distribution system, so their share will go to others. We have a saying in Arabic, "the mishaps of some, are the fortunes of others".
- The construction of any major power generation plant (in the range of a thousand Megawatt) takes from 3 to 5 years. And till this moment, no such action is taken or even considered. So we are not to expect any noticeable improvement for some years to come.

>> All 22 universities and 43 technical institutes and colleges are open, as are nearly all primary and secondary schools.

That’s true. But every now and then, a school gets a warning about a bomb, so many parents are afraid to send their kids to schools, and when they do so, they will be deeply worried. The laboratories of most of the universities were looted and new ones have not been prepared yet.

>> By October 1, Coalition forces had rehabbed over 1,500 schools - 500 more than their target.

As for schools, well Kathy replied to that very accurately in her reply and I quote

"Several articles have already been written about the poor quality of school rehabs. Loads of paint has been applied so that buildings look better from the outside, but inside there hasn’t been adequate rehab of plumbing systems, water systems, and insulation from rain."
Money were given to contractors without any form of monitoring. The contractors did some fixing, specially painting and stole the rest of the money. End of the story.

>> Teachers earn from 12 to 25 times their former salaries.

True, but the extra money is being spent in ways that did not exist before. People are spending money to subscribe for few ampers to get some electricity from the large generators that can be found in many neighborhoods now. An Amper is sold for about $2-3 a month, so for the minimum useful amount of 5 Ampers, one will have to pay an amount of $10-15 a month (A teachers salary now ranges from $60-120 a month, maybe a little bit more). Those who are not willing to stand in the fuel queue will have to buy fuel in the black market for about 20 times its official price. The same for Kerosene. Many things like meat and vegetables are almost double their previous prices.

Only electrical equipment and cars got cheaper everything else got more expensive, eating the few extra bucks that were given.

>> All 240 hospitals and more than 1200 clinics are open. Doctors’ salaries are at least eight times what they were under Saddam.

Doctors used to get very very very very low salaries. Now they get very low salaries. My sister in law, who is a doctor, gets about as much as the cleaning man working in the same hospital and that’s about $120. There is a rumur that the salaries will be recalculated soon. Lets wait and see.

>> Pharmaceutical distribution has gone from essentially nothing to 700 tons in May to a current total of 12,000 tons. The Coalition has helped administer over 22 million vaccination doses to Iraq’s children.

I don’t know about that. So I will not comment.

>> A Coalition program has cleared over 14,000 kilometers of Iraq’s 27,000 kilometers of weed-choked canals. They now irrigate tens of thousands of farms. This project has created jobs for more than 100,000 Iraqi men and women.

Same comment as above, that is, no comment.

>> We have restored over three-quarters of pre-war telephone services and over two-thirds of the potable water production. There are 4,900 full-service connections. We expect 50,000 by January first.

The telephone lines that are working now, are basically those that have not been damaged in the first place. From those damaged, and after about 8 months, only about 15% has been restored. No one expected fixing the telephone service to take that long.

As for water, well its too vital. You didn’t expect the US to leave us without water? Or did you?

>> The wheels of commerce are turning. From bicycles to satellite dishes to cars and trucks, businesses are coming to life in all major cities and towns.

That’s something I’ve always wanted to comment on.

- Allowing tens of thousands of air-conditioners to come into the country (tax-free) when we have an extreme shortage in power generation is not a smart thing to do. (I don’t know if you know this or not, but a single air-conditioning unit consumes about 15 Ampers, while all our house consumes about 10 Ampers).
- Allowing about 500,000 cars to enter the country (tax free), when we have an extreme shortage of fuel is also not a smart thing to do. Picture this, - Shortage of fuel, - many main roads being blocked by the CPA for security reasons,
- Allowing about 500,000 cars to enter the country, 200,000 in Baghdad alone.

Is that something to be proud of? What happened is more shortage in fuel, more traffic jams because of the blocked roads, extra cars, and absence of electricity which means no traffic lights. I used to drive to work in about 20 minutes, now its takes from 40 to 90 minutes!

>> 95 percent of all pre-war bank customers have service and first-time customers are opening accounts daily. Iraqi banks are making loans to finance businesses. The central bank is fully independent. Iraq has one of the world’s most growth-oriented investment and banking laws. Iraq (has) a single, unified currency for the first time in 15 years.

Well we are definitely happy to finally have a decently printed currency.

>> Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1st… satellite dishes are legal.

Thank God, we needed something to spend our time with because no one dares to leave home after 9 PM.

>> Foreign journalists aren’t on 10-day visas paying mandatory and extortionate fees to the Ministry of Information for "minders" and other government spies. There is no Ministry of Information.

That’s something we are really grateful for. Really.

>> There are more than 170 newspapers.

Many newspapers, but not 170. Anyway, Iraqis are finally back to reading newspapers, because the majority of Iraqis had stopped doing so for a long time.

>> You can buy satellite dishes on what seems like every street corner.

For the first few months after the occupation, all Iraqis were either selling satellite reception systems, or buying them. That was the only thing going.

>> Foreign journalists and everyone else are free to come and go.

But they are afraid to come. Baghdad is no more a safe place for foreigners.

>> A nation that had not one single element-legislative, judicial or executive–of a representative government, does. In Baghdad alone residents have selected 88 advisory councils. Baghdad’s first democratic transfer of power in 35 years happened when the city council elected its new chairman. Today in Iraq chambers of commerce, business, school and professional organizations are electing their leaders all over the country. 25 ministers, selected by the most representative governing body in Iraq’s history, run the day-to-day business of government.

Did it ever happen anywhere in the world, that the religion of the minister of each ministry, is determined before selecting the minister. Regardless of the ministers ability, the way they were chosen, arouse many question marks, let alone the exclamation marks. But something is definitely better than nothing.

The problem of each minister promoting those having the same religion as his or in his party over others, is a different story, and I don’t believe that the Americans are to be blamed for this.

>> The Iraqi government regularly participates in international events. Since July the Iraqi government has been represented in over two dozen international meetings, including those of the UN General Assembly, the Arab League, the World Bank and IMF and, today, the Islamic Conference Summit. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs today announced that it is reopening over 30 Iraqi embassies around the world.

Thanks for giving us our very basic rights. Should we be grateful for that?

>> Shia religious festivals that were all but banned, aren’t. For the first time in 35 years, in Karbala thousands of Shiites celebrate the pilgrimage of the 12th Imam. The Coalition has completed over 13,000 reconstruction projects, large and small as part of (a) strategic plan for the reconstruction of Iraq. Uday and Queasy are dead - and no longer feeding innocent Iraqis to his zoo lions, raping the young daughters of local leaders to force cooperation, torturing Iraq’s soccer players for losing games…murdering critics. Children aren’t imprisoned or murdered when their parents disagree with the government.

We are definitely happy that Uday and Quesay are gone, but now the possibility of being blown up or getting caught in cross fire is much higher than getting into trouble with Uday and Quesay. Two terrorists are gone, but replaced by hundreds (note that I am not referring to the US army, but to those who kill innocent Iraqis and then claim to be the resistance)

>> Since President Bush declared an end to major combat on May 1st… political opponents aren’t imprisoned, tortured, executed, maimed, or are forced to watch their families die for disagreeing with Saddam. Millions of longsuffering Iraqis no longer live in perpetual terror.

That’s one of the reasons that is easing our pain.

>> Saudis will hold municipal elections. Qatar is reforming education to give more choices to parents. Jordan is accelerating market economic reforms.

The Nobel Peace Prize was awarded for the first time to an Iranian — a Muslim woman who speaks out with courage for human rights, for democracy and for peace.

AND LET ME ADD.

AND IRAQ NOW IS A COMPLETE MESS

To summarize:

Yes things are getting better, but very slowly. In fact it is so slow that we are not expecting things to get back to normal in months to come. We modified our hopes from few months, to few years and we are very sad to have reached this conclusion.

Till this moment, we are not even close to pre-war situation. Yes we can have satellite dishes, and we have many newspapers, but put all such stuff in on one side of a balance, and absence of electricity, security, and fuel on the other, and you tell me which side will go down.

The Coalition did a very lousy job. We are not asking them to admit it, but at least let them keep quite and not go bragging about it.

Some Iraqi said, and I quote “The Americans took the cotton out of our mouths and put it in their ears”. This is exactly what happened here.
I hope I’ve answered some of your questions, and excuse me if I sounded too sarcastic, but this is the way things are. The bare truth, unfortunately, is an ugly one. Sometimes I have a feeling of optimisms, but when I start writing, stating the facts, think about what I am writing, things change. If you know I what I mean.

PS: I wrote this message last Thursday, and was unable to send it till today (4 Jan 04). There is one update now. The fuel queues are decreasing and the problem is getting solved gradually. the number of cars reduced to the range of tens of cars instead of hundreds. Thank God

Finally, Happy new year. And may this year be better for all of us.

Sincerely yours,

Ahmed Kharrufa

http://vitw.org/archives/174

Hobbes

03-08-2005, 01:13 PM

Yep. We're a virtual pair made in heaven.

Ok, I read some of it and he's a funny sumbitch. I take it back. :add22:

Pispas

03-08-2005, 01:21 PM

Ok, I read some of it and he's a funny sumbitch. I take it back. :add22:No probs. We've got a similarly decrepit sense of humor. :D

Pispas

03-08-2005, 01:38 PM

Dear George,

Kathy asked me to give some comments to the letter you’ve forwarded her. I feel flattered that Kathy trusted my judgment that much, and I hope that I am worthy of her trust. I’ll do my best to comment on each point as accurately as possible.

AND LET ME ADD.

AND IRAQ NOW IS A COMPLETE MESS

To summarize:

Yes things are getting better, but very slowly. In fact it is so slow that we are not expecting things to get back to normal in months to come. We modified our hopes from few months, to few years and we are very sad to have reached this conclusion.

Till this moment, we are not even close to pre-war situation. Yes we can have satellite dishes, and we have many newspapers, but put all such stuff in on one side of a balance, and absence of electricity, security, and fuel on the other, and you tell me which side will go down.

The Coalition did a very lousy job. We are not asking them to admit it, but at least let them keep quite and not go bragging about it.

Some Iraqi said, and I quote “The Americans took the cotton out of our mouths and put it in their ears”. This is exactly what happened here.

Ahmed Kharrufa

http://vitw.org/archives/174<I snipped some for brevity>

Now that's putting a finer point on the real picture, I think.

THX1138

03-08-2005, 02:28 PM

Food is bought abroad using foreign currency for which Iraq needs approval by the UN and needs to use oil money. So in order for that statement to actually mean something, you should provide evidence that those palaces were built using Oil For Food money instead of Iraqi currency which won't boost domestic food production.

If the palaces are built with either source of money while children are dying...what's the distinction and how does it matter?

Oil For Food is documented as one of the greatest cases of fraud in recent history, much of the money that wasn't going to the UN crooks...was going to Saddam.

One things for certain...it did not go to feeding starving children.

Pispas

03-08-2005, 02:38 PM

If the palaces are built with either source of money while children are dying...what's the distinction and how does it matter?

Oil For Food is documented as one of the greatest cases of fraud in recent history, much of the money that wasn't going to the UN crooks...was going to Saddam.

One things for certain...it did not go to feeding starving children.Agreed. And it was a no-brainer really, that any program in a dictatorial regime is unlikely to end up there where it's needed. (Food aid for North Korea comes to mind).
That's why I was against the sanctions. It only punished those who had a crap life already.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 03:16 AM

If the palaces are built with either source of money while children are dying...what's the distinction and how does it matter?
I'll give an example. In Belgium say 5% of the people work in the argiculutural sector. If you would double that number, the output wouldn't double as this nation is highly industrialized and nearly all available agricultural land is used either for industry of for living. So say we would not be entirely self sufficient and would need to import 50% of our food, for which we need foreign currency to buy it. In that case, it doesn't matter one bit whether we use our domestic currency on more farmers or for entirely useless purposes as the domestic food output can't increase any further. What does matter is how we spend the foreign currency we get through export of some products, as that is what is useful to buy what we come short in food. So in the case of Iraq, only how the food for oil money is spent, should matter, not how domestic currency is abused if food output was already maximal.

Oil For Food is documented as one of the greatest cases of fraud in recent history, much of the money that wasn't going to the UN crooks...was going to Saddam. One things for certain...it did not go to feeding starving children.
That's what Fox News and others tell you to believe. Sure some money was abused, but noone can say exactly what percentage and a lot of the money did go to feeding starving children.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 05:12 AM

"Some money was abused"? Obviously a shitload was funneled off.
As a percentage, what amount was abused and what sources do you have for this?

THX1138

03-09-2005, 10:30 AM

In that case, it doesn't matter one bit whether we use our domestic currency on more farmers or for entirely useless purposes as the domestic food output can't increase any further. What does matter is how we spend the foreign currency we get through export of some products, as that is what is useful to buy what we come short in food. So in the case of Iraq, only how the food for oil money is spent, should matter, not how domestic currency is abused if food output was already maximal.

You are able to justify his excesses and graft so well one would think you related.

I again say that expenditures for palaces while children in your country starve is criminal, regardless if it's export money or domestic.

And using maximized food production as a basis for explaining starving children is simply not admitting that ships carry containers, these containers can carry food, the containers carrying food could have been paid for by domestic money, thus saving some poor children's lives.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 10:44 AM

You are able to justify his excesses and graft so well one would think you related.
Personal attack.

I again say that expenditures for palaces while children in your country starve is criminal, regardless if it's export money or domestic.
Easy for you to say. What would you do? Remember, agricultural ground is limited - large parts are freaking desert - and is probably already used as much as it can. Assigning more farmers won't help much. To increase production by adding fertilizer or pesticides you need chemical plants but tough luck: they're under embargo for dual use reasons. Assigning more resources to that hence won't work either. So you tell me, what would be a better use for domestic currency should it be spent on increasing food production?

And using maximized food production as a basis for explaining starving children is simply not admitting that ships carry containers, these containers can carry food, the containers carrying food could have been paid for by domestic money, thus saving some poor children's lives.
Keep in mind all imports have to be paid for with foreign currency as obtained by oil exports as required by Oil For Food. That was the whole basis of the embargo.

THX1138

03-09-2005, 11:07 AM

I was not attacking you, just your zeal in defending Saddam's policies.

As to what I would do while the children starve? I would would probably not import italian marble instead of powdered milk, I wouldn't import gold plated toilet fixtures instead of fresh fruit and veggies for the kiddies.

As to all imports needing to be paid for by foreign money, I can't say that's true or not, but I'd like to be convinced that Saddam while importing marble and gold toilets couldn't get food into the country.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 11:20 AM

As to what I would do while the children starve? I would would probably not import italian marble instead of powdered milk, I wouldn't import gold plated toilet fixtures instead of fresh fruit and veggies for the kiddies.
Did such things happen perhaps? I was under the slight impression the US is a UN member, even more, one with veto power, and that everything that Iraq imported went through them before it got their approval stamp. This went quite far as the US even delayed shipments of eggs for "dual use" reasons. Chicken eggs can btw be used for production of smallpox, but it shows the degree of paranoia.

Pispas

03-09-2005, 11:27 AM

Did such things happen perhaps? I was under the slight impression the US is a UN member, even more, one with veto power, and that everything that Iraq imported went through them before it got their approval stamp. This went quite far as the US even delayed shipments of eggs for "dual use" reasons. Chicken eggs can btw be used for production of smallpox, but it shows the degree of paranoia.Which reminds me; the appointment of John Bolton (I think his name is) as American Ambassador to the UN, a notorious critic of the UN, famous for some ever-so-slightly non-PC remarks, will work out really well to achieve a revamping of the UN, I think. :)

THX1138

03-09-2005, 11:37 AM

If these things wern't imported...where did they come from?

I think the only place Italian marble comes from is Italy. Toilet fixtures and all the other luxury items were probably not stockpiled in some warehouse waiting in case Saddam decided to build a dozen or so palaces.

If you're suggesting that Iraqs borders were air tight and the sanctions foolproof...then I have doubts.

If these things got in past the sanction inspectors coming in, then couldn't WMD get out of the country the same way? Over dirt roads to Syria, Iran or Turkey?

Simon666

03-09-2005, 11:43 AM

In 1993, the Iraqi Ministry of Agriculture reported that production for the year was only 25 to 30 percent of 1992's yield (Dulmage 1). The primary cause for this decline in production is that there is a shortage of spare parts, fertilizers, pesticides, and seed. In particular, the UN sanctions have made it extremely difficult to maintain the elaborate government greenhouse complex at Raschdiva, just outside of Baghdad, which is the center of Iraqi agriculture.

The sanctions have made it practically impossible to replace glass broken at the Raschdiva greenhouse complex during the coalition's bombing attacks on a nearby communications outpost during the war. No longer able to import the glass required for repairs, replacement glass and parts now can only come from one source; the Iraqis have begun stripping some of the more heavily damaged greenhouses. Of course, the more they cannibalize, the fewer greenhouses are available to grow much needed crops. Additionally, machinery is breaking down and there are no spare parts to be found in Iraq to keep equipment running. The Raschdiva greenhouse system relies on the ability to electronically control the climate inside the greenhouses. As electronic components fail, more greenhouses are closed down.

Since 1990, Iraq has also been unable to import foodstuffs and medical supplies at the volume required by its 18 million people. Before the imposition of the oil embargo in August 1990, Iraq imported food and medical products worth $3-4 billion a year. The revenue available today for those type of imports, including those arriving as contraband from Jordan, Turkey, and Iran, does not exceed a billion dollars (Rouleau 64).

A thorough examination of the sanctions reveals that the Security Council has imposed no formal restrictions on the import of humanitarian goods (i.e. food and medical supplies). However, the ban on Iraqi oil exports has essentially done just that. Iraq relies on the revenue generated from the sale of oil to purchase such goods. Therefore, to avert wholesale starvation, in 1990 the government implemented a policy of providing all Iraqis with a basic monthly food ration at a cost of about $1 billion a year from its hidden reserves and with minimal help from UN agencies (Lewis A3). As Iraq's hidden reserves became depleted, the government was forced to economize. "Government rations were recently cut by one third, so they now provide less than half a person's nutritional requirements" (Platt 15). According to a 1994 UNICEF report:

The caloric deficit among Iraqis is now putting at risk some 3.5 million persons, including 1.58 million children under the age of 15 and 230,000 pregnant or nursing women. Many children, it is now believed will be born mentally handicapped; the infant mortality rate, which has doubled in three years, will continue to rise (Jansen 9).

http://iraqwar.org/impossible.htm

=====================================

The first part in red indicate that one of the main causes was the shortage of fertilizers and pesticides, goods which couldn't be bought due to the embargo as ammoniumnitrate is useful for explosives - as the people in Oklahoma can testify - and pesticides are chemically quite similar to nerve agents. So no matter how you spend your domestic revenues, you're not going to raise food output. That needs to be done by importing it. The second part in red indicates that in order to import it, it needs to be bought with foreign valuta. Which is for a country like Iraq only possible on large scale through the sale of oil.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 11:48 AM

The Italian marble story is an invention by Madeleine Albright who came up with that excuse after her comment that 500.000 dead Iraqi children "were worth it". It makes her comment seem less bad and Saddam worse, shifting blame to one side and one side only while the responsabilities are mixed.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 12:02 PM

Of course going by the whole comparisons for pre-war iraq you would have to go all the way back to the beginning of the Iran-Iraq war. How much of their infrastructure was destroyed during that part of their history? One needs to weigh the cost of allowing a regime to continue with the cost of putting it to an end. So few people actually do that anymore. (On both the pro and the anti sides of the arguement.)

Screw Hollywood

03-09-2005, 12:11 PM

Food is bought abroad using foreign currency for which Iraq needs approval by the UN and needs to use oil money. So in order for that statement to actually mean something, you should provide evidence that those palaces were built using Oil For Food money instead of Iraqi currency which won't boost domestic food production.
I'm sure that is of great consolation to the kids, knowing that their starving is due to international sanctions and not to Saddams opulence. I'm sure Saddam slept well at night (in his gilded budoir) smug in the knowledge that it wasn't his fault his country's children were dying from neglect. :mad_08:

Screw Hollywood

03-09-2005, 12:15 PM

Keep in mind all imports have to be paid for with foreign currency as obtained by oil exports as required by Oil For Food. That was the whole basis of the embargo.
Keep in mind there would be no embargo or sanctions if Saddam had complied with the UN resolution.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 12:15 PM

I'm sure that is of great consolation to the kids, knowing that their starving is due to international sanctions and not to Saddams opulence.
That's not the point. The point is that it is claimed that if Saddam wouldn't have spent money on palaces or other things, less children would have died. That's largely exaggerated.

I'm sure Saddam slept well at night (in his gilded budoir) smug in the knowledge that it wasn't his fault his country's children were dying from neglect. :mad_08:
It didn't keep Halfbright awake either.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 12:17 PM

Keep in mind there would be no embargo or sanctions if Saddam had complied with the UN resolution.
I'm sure the people of Iraq could use a well deserved extra punishment as if Saddam alone wasn't enough.

Criminal Minded

03-09-2005, 12:21 PM

The point is that it is claimed that if Saddam wouldn't have spent money on palaces or other things, less children would have died...

You just don't build marble palaces for yourself while your people are dying. Don't defend Satan.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 12:29 PM

You just don't build marble palaces for yourself while your people are dying. Don't defend Satan.
Keeps people employed and spending it otherwise won't help food production one bit. Don't buy overly simplistic propaganda.

Screw Hollywood

03-09-2005, 12:32 PM

That's not the point. The point is that it is claimed that if Saddam wouldn't have spent money on palaces or other things, less children would have died. That's largely exaggerated.

It didn't keep Halfbright awake either.
You're right if he didn't spend it on palaces, it still wouldn't have gone to his people. God Forbid.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 12:32 PM

Keeps people employed and spending it otherwise won't help food production one bit. Don't buy overly simplistic propaganda.

And draining the marshes where they raised rice helped how?

Screw Hollywood

03-09-2005, 12:33 PM

Keeps people employed and spending it otherwise won't help food production one bit. Don't buy overly simplistic propaganda.
Fine. Build a waste treatment plant. How about public housing? Water treatment? A hospital?

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 12:35 PM

A proper school versus gold plating all their kalashnikovs. Where do you set priorities?

Simon666

03-09-2005, 12:43 PM

And draining the marshes where they raised rice helped how?
Allows irrigation elsewhere. Having large amounts of water in swamps to evaporate there may be environmentally natural but far from efficient.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 12:46 PM

Allows irrigation elsewhere. Having large amounts of water in swamps to evaporate there may be environmentally natural but far from efficient.

The water wasn't drained for irrigation though...it was drained as punishment.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 12:51 PM

Many marsh inhabitants fled to Iran, from where accounts-- accurate or not-- reached the press. They describe the former marshes as a landscape where people struggle through deep mud, water is underground and unsafe, waste accumulates, and food is scarce. They say that in addition to dikes and ditches, the government secured the marshes using troops, mines, poison, and artillery. Other critics accuse the Iraqi government of draining unusable land, leaving good land unused, and ruining other land by stripping its topsoil to build dikes.7
http://edcwww.cr.usgs.gov/earthshots/slow/Iraq/Iraqtext

Stripping away arable land helps in irrigation, how?

Simon666

03-09-2005, 12:54 PM

Fine. Build a waste treatment plant. How about public housing? Water treatment? A hospital?
Waste and water treatment plants are a bit hard as several items such as chlorine were embargoed. Public housing, schools and hospitals seem useful, however, it seems Iraq already has enough schools. School attendance was already high under Saddam and has dropped since the invasion, many parents are afraid to send their children to school due to the violence. The building and refurbishing of schools by the coalition is largely a PR measure and it keeps people employed as well. It's nice to be sitting in a refurbished school but won't improve your education much. Hospitals were also plentiful under Saddam, the problem with them was lack of equipment and medicin, for which again the sanctions come into play.

When Saddam started, before the Iran-Iraq war, he was a ruthless dictator, but when he nationalized the oil industry he used the money for large scale alphabetization programs, to build schools and hospitals and to modernize the country. Before the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq was one of the richest nations, with high employment, high literacy rates and a rather liberal attitude as far as the position of women was concerned, certainly compared to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia. Ofcourse, during and after the Iran-Iraq and Gulf War, he became just a ruthless dictator and one who put his country into a deep misery.

So I'm not excusing him, I'm giving you some info on how it comes that there are enough schools and hospitals in Iraq.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:01 PM

Waste treatment is easy to accomplish without chemicals. Dige a pit and cover the waste with lime on a rotating schedule. It is one of the ways they do it here. The water evaporates and the lime is now a potent fertilizer.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:03 PM

The water wasn't drained for irrigation though...it was drained as punishment.
I know it was used as punishment.

Of the water that does reach Iraq, 93% is diverted for agriculture. Further reducing the flow to the marshes are the dams, many built by Saddam, to divert water for people and industry. Refilling the marshes would take 26 billion cubic yards, Janabi says, an impossible amount to divert to the wetlands in a year.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-11-25-marsh-arabs-usat_x.htm
As you can see, most of the water is used. The marsh Arabs were just used as convenient propaganda material against Saddam: oh look at what those poor people suffered, even though we allowed Saddam to bloodily crush them. I can't stand the hypocrisy. If as you claim the water wasn't used, then why wouldn't the US open the floodgates and restore the marshlands in notime? Because it isn't that easy and it would set other people without water to irrigate their lands.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:13 PM

I know it was used as punishment.

Of the water that does reach Iraq, 93% is diverted for agriculture. Further reducing the flow to the marshes are the dams, many built by Saddam, to divert water for people and industry. Refilling the marshes would take 26 billion cubic yards, Janabi says, an impossible amount to divert to the wetlands in a year.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-11-25-marsh-arabs-usat_x.htm
As you can see, most of the water is used. The marsh Arabs were just used as convenient propaganda material against Saddam: oh look at what those poor people suffered, even though we allowed Saddam to bloodily crush them. I can't stand the hypocrisy. If as you claim the water wasn't used, then why wouldn't the US open the floodgates and restore the marshlands in notime? Because it isn't that easy and it would set other people without water to irrigate their lands.

The problem with this article is that the 26 billion cubic yards was already in place before the swamps were drained.
The article states that 93% of the water that reaches iraq is used....water that REACHES Iraq....that water was once again already there.
As well you already admitted that the marshes were drained as a punishment....Saddam was in no big crunch for water when he did this...it was pure revenge and unneccessary. The problem was never a water shortage UNTIL AFTER the marshes were drained...restoring the marshes would create the problem. There is no hypocrisy here.....your arguments have been taken apart too easily.

Criminal Minded

03-09-2005, 01:16 PM

Simon Simon stop defending a moron. Stop defending a murderer. Your hate for us is so big that you defend Satan and don't even know it.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:30 PM

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:30 PM

Simon Simon stop defending a moron. Stop defending a murderer. Your hate for us is so big that you defend Satan and don't even know it.
Stop the phoney arguments to make yourselves seem more self righteous.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:31 PM

I'm sure it originally ended up in those swamps by rain. After all, it rains a lot in Iraq. That's why most of it is a desert. Gee, I wonder why it hasn't rained back yet. Wake up: most of Iraq's water comes from over the border, same goes for Syria and Israel. The reason why the marshlands can't be flooded fast again is because it's used elsewhere and probably more efficiently than just standing still and evaporating in swamps.

Rain and runoff from the rivers.....the dykes and dams are responsible for holding it back. It took millions of years for those swamps to accumulate...do you expect them to be made whole again in just a few days?

Evaporating in a swamp or evaporating behind a dam or a dyke....it comes out the same...evaporation.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:34 PM

It took millions of years for those swamps to accumulate...
Make that years at most.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:38 PM

Make that years at most.

You have no clue as to how things happen in this world do you?

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:40 PM

You have no clue as to how things happen in this world do you?
Ever heard of the Baikal lake? That took a few years and is several times the content of the Iraqi marshlands.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:52 PM

Ever heard of the Baikal lake? That took a few years and is several times the content of the Iraqi marshlands.

A lake is not a marsh now is it? Marshes are vast complexes made up of lakes and floodplains that have built up over a period of time and segregated by sedimentary deposits...that sort of a structure does NOT happen in just a few years.

Simon666

03-09-2005, 01:55 PM

A lake is not a marsh now is it? Marshes are vast complexes made up of lakes and floodplains that have built up over a period of time and segregated by sedimentary deposits...that sort of a structure does NOT happen in just a few years.
The quantities water needed for them can be emptied or filled in a matter of years. Don't pay dumb, you were pretending like it would take millions of years to get them back in order.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 01:59 PM

The quantities water needed for them can be emptied or filled in a matter of years. Don't pay dumb, you were pretending like it would take millions of years to get them back in order.

No dumbass...i said it took millions of years for them to form. It will take years to correct them.....look at my original post on this. And stop trying to insinuate that i said something that i didn't. You know damned well what I meant. Anyone else reading this knows damned well what I meant. And pretending otherwise will only portray yourself as a very dense person.

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 02:03 PM

Rain and runoff from the rivers.....the dykes and dams are responsible for holding it back. It took millions of years for those swamps to accumulate...do you expect them to be made whole again in just a few days?

Evaporating in a swamp or evaporating behind a dam or a dyke....it comes out the same...evaporation.

Exactly where in this post did i state that it would take millions of years for them to be fixed? You would be well advised to read something thoroughly. If you try to fix something like this in an extremely short period of time like you were suggesting....(remember the arguement for how much water it would take to fix it?) it would put a stain on the water supply...like i stated in other posts. If it is done gradually it will not harm the sedimentary boundaries of the marshes and create no water shortage. (Which was the main staple of your arguement i do believe)

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 02:04 PM

stick that in yer pipe and smoke it.

Pispas

03-09-2005, 02:07 PM

You're right if he didn't spend it on palaces, it still wouldn't have gone to his people. God Forbid.You're possibly quite right here; if he wouldn't have spent it on palaces or luxuries for himself, he sure would have spent whatever percentage he skimmed off -- also on illegal oil exports to Turkey -- on HIS people; meaning the loyal crowd around him, and on perms and pedicures for their wives, toys for his boys, etc.

As usual, the actual point is now buried deeply somewhere in the beginning of this thread, which is: the so-called list of accomplishments achieved is complete bollox for at least 15-20%. And that's an optimistic estimate.

Still no consensus on that?

Pispas

03-09-2005, 02:14 PM

A nice link for marshland afficionados:

http://www.ilstu.edu/~clroger2/IraqiMarshlands/Geotimes.html

CharlieHorse

03-09-2005, 02:18 PM

Thanks man....it's in my favorites. I think about all the species, history, and people lost and it makes me want to cry.

undertaker

03-09-2005, 02:37 PM

Help them then Mr. concerned citizen. The insurgents are treating them better I see. Falluja was and is a booming town.

A poor choice of words!

Orson :)

NYC

03-09-2005, 03:13 PM

Did you Know This About Iraq?

An advanced civilization flourished in this region long before that of Egypt, Greece, and Rome, for it was here in about 4000BC that the Sumerian culture flourished.

In 2340 BC, the great Akkadian military leader, Sargon, conquered Sumer and built an Akkadian empire stretching over most of the Sumerian city-states.

The Sumerian city of Ur in southern Mesopotamia rose up in revolt, and the Akkadian empire fell before a renewal of Sumerian city-states.

After the collapse of the Sumerian civilization, the people were reunited in 1700BC by King Hammurabi of Babylon (1792-1750 BC), and the country flourished under the name of Babylonia.

Then there was a lot of back and forth with several other groups ending with the Assyrains ruling the area.

Then Nebuchadnezzar, Naboplashar, and Nebuchadnezzar II created the Mesopotamian civilization that we know with the Bible and the hanging gardens.

Then there was Cyrus the Great in 539BC followed by, Alexander the Great in 331BC, who died there in 323 BC. Then it became part of the Persian Empire again.

Then Arab Muslims captured it in 634AD. Most of the Iraqi tribes were Christian at the time of the Islamic conquest. Arabic replaced Persian as the official language and it slowly filtered into common language usage. Iraqis intermarried with Arabs and converted to Islam.

Then there were The Abbasid Caliphates until Hulagu Khan (1217-65), Genghis Khan grandson. The Mongol ruler from the Far East swept west and gained control of the land, he marched on Baghdad with two hundred thousand Tartars. They remained busy in killing for forty days. Rivers of blood flowed in the streets and all the alleys were filled with dead bodies. Hundred of thousands of people were put to the sword while al-Musta`sim Billah, the last Abbasid caliph, was murdered, trampled to death under foot.

After the death in 1335 of the last great Mongol khan, Abu Said, a period of political confusion ensued in Iraq until a local petty dynasty, the Jalayirids, seized power. The Jalayirids ruled until the beginning of the fifteenth century. Jalayirid rule was abruptly checked by the rising power of a Mongol, Tamerlane, (1336-1405). In 1401 he sacked Baghdad and massacred many of its inhabitants. Tamerlane killed thousands of Iraqis and devastated hundreds of towns.

From the sixteenth to the twentieth centuries, the course of Iraqi history was affected by the continuing conflicts between the Safavid Empire in Iran and the Ottoman Turks. The Safavids, who were the first to declare Shi'a Islam the official religion of Iran, sought to control Iraq both because of the Shi'a holy places at An Najaf and Karbala and because Baghdad, the seat of the old Abbasid Empire, had great symbolic value. The Ottomans, fearing that Shi'a Islam would spread to Anatolia (Asia Minor), sought to maintain Iraq as a Sunni-controlled buffer state.

Between 1625 and 1668, and from 1694 to 1701, local sheikhs ruled Al Basrah and the marshlands, home of the Madan (Marsh Arabs). The powerful sheikhs basically ignored the Ottoman governor of Baghdad.

the Mamluks began asserting authority apart from the Ottomans. Extending their rule first over Basrah, the Mamluks eventually controlled the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys from the Arabian (Persian) Gulf to the foothills of Kurdistan.

The Mamluk period ended in 1831, when a severe flood and plague devastated Baghdad, enabling the Ottoman sultan, Mahmud II, to reassert Ottoman sovereignty over Iraq.

The Atta Turk Revolution of 1908 spread nationalism in Iraq. After nearly 400 years under Ottoman rule, Iraq was ill prepared to form a nation-state.

Turkish rule continued unchecked, and with very little development, until the end of the 19th century, on the collapse of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War.

The Hashemite family of Hussein ibn-Ali promised to aid Britain by revolting against the Ottoman Turks. The Ottoman Empire collapsed when British forces invaded Mesopotamia in 1917 and occupied Baghdad.

British Mandate was officially terminated. In 1927, discovery of huge oil fields near Karkuk brought many improvements to Iraq. The Iraqis granted oil rights to the Iraqi Petroleum Company -a British dominated, multinational firm.

Also in 1936 Iraq experienced its first military coup d'etat--the first coup d'etat in the modern Arab world, led by General Bakr Sidqi. he was murdered by a military group in August 1937.

In 1938 King Ghazi decided to attempt to realize his ambition of annexing Kuwait, part of his dream to lead the Fertile Crescent movement. But, at a critical moment, when Iraqi troops had massed near Kuwait's northern border, Ghazi's obsession with fast motorcars proved his undoing. The king drove his car into a lamppost and died instantly on the 3rd of April 1939.

The new prime minister sought close ties with Nazi Germany in hope to release Iraq from British domination. Rashid Ali proposed restrictions on British troops movements in Iraq. Abd al Ilah and Nuri as-Said both were proponents of close cooperation with Britain. They opposed Rashid Ali's policies and pressed him to resign. In response, the army surrounded The Royal palace in Baghdad on April 1,1941. British troops from the air base marched on Baghdad. The ensuing war between Britain and Iraq lasted less than a month. A new, pro-British government was established

an evil conspiracy carried out by Yunis Al Sabawi, head of Nazi groups, who declared himself governor of central southern Iraq. He ordered Jews through Hakham Sasson Khedouri, to remain in their homes from Saturday, May 31 until Monday, June 2 —Shabu'oth. with the intention of slaughtering the Jews that weekend using the Nazi youth organizations he was heading. However, miraculously, Sabawi was deported to the Iranian border that same day. Rashid Ali Al-Gaylani and his government fled to Iran on his way to Germany, as a guest of the Fuehrer, he spent the remainder of the war broadcasting to the Arab world and planning to regain power when German pincers from Egypt and the Caucasus finally met at the Persian Gulf.

War with Israel followed in 1948. In 1950 the Iraqi parliament finally legalized emigration to Israel, and between May 1950 and August 1951, the Jewish Agency and the Israeli government succeeded in airlifting approximately 110,000 Jews to Israel in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; about 120,000 Iraqi Jews emigrated to Israel between 1948 and 1952.

Inspired by the example of Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt, the Hashimite monarchy was overthrown on July 14, 1958. Prime Minister Nuri as-Said escaped capture for one day after attempting to escape disguised as a veiled woman, but was then caught and put to death, his body tied to the back of a car and dragged through the streets until there was nothing left but half a leg.

Brigadier Abdul-Karim Qassem made himself the new Prime Minister, Then there was more in fighting.

In 1961, Kuwait gained its independence from Britain. Abdul-Karim Qassem immediately claimed sovereignty over it, claim to the Amirate as originally part of the Ottoman province of Basrah. Britain reacted strongly to this threat to its ex-protectorate, dispatching a brigade to the country to deter Iraq. Qassem backed down, and in October 1963, Iraq recognised the sovereignty and borders of Kuwait.

Qassem was assassinated in February 1963, when Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party members took power; under the leadership of Gen. Ahmed Hasan al-Bakr as prime minister and Col. Abdul Salam Arif as president. Nine months later, President Abdul Salam Mohammad Arif led a successful coup against the Ba'athists, ousting the Ba'ath government. In April 13 1966 President Abdul Salam Arif dies in a helicopter crash! and is followed by his brother Gen. Abdul Rahman Arif. Following the Six Day War of 1967, the Ba'ath Party felt strong enough. The Ba'athists overthrow Arif and regained power on 17th of July 1968 coup.

In July 1979 the president, Ahmed Hasan Al-Bakr, was replaced by Saddam Hussein, his vice president, chosen successor, and the true ruler of Iraq. Saddam then assumed both of the vacated offices and purged political rivals in order to assure his position. Once more the political situation flared into hostilities with Iran. On September 17, 1980 Saddam declares the Iraqi/Iranian borders agreement null and void. Iran-Iraq War, which began 5 days later on September 22, 1980, lasted for eight years.

Iraqi troops overran Kuwait shortly after midnight on 2nd August 1990. The U.S. fell short on its claim to not get involved and instantly declared interest in keeping Saudi Arabia safe.

Over the ensuing months, the United Nations Security Council passed a series of resolutions condemned the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, implementing total mandatory economic sanctions against Iraq. Other countries subsequently provided support for "Operation Desert Shield". In November 1990, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 678, permitting member states to use all necessary means, authorizing military action against the Iraqi forces occupying Kuwait, and demanded a complete withdrawal by 15th of January 1991. When Saddam Hussein failed to comply with this demand, Operation "Desert Storm" ensued on the 17th of January 1991. With allied troops of 28 countries, the US launched an aerial bombardment on Baghdad.

A cease-fire was announced by the US on 28th February 1991. UN terms for a permanent cease-fire were agreed by Iraq in April of that year, and strict conditions were imposed, demanding the disclosure and destruction of all stockpiles of weapons. A few days after the war had ended, popular insurrections broke out in southern Iraq and in Kurdistan in the north, where rebels took control of most of the region's towns. The United States (President George Bush) again fell short of its commitments in protecting the uprising, let the people exposed. Units of the Republican Guard that had survived the conflict acted with extreme brutality and gained the upper hand in the Basrah, Najaf and Karbala regions.

The United States, in an attempt to prevent the genocide of the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq and the Kurds to the north, declared air exclusion zones north of the 36th parallel and south of the 32nd parallel. The Clinton administration judged an alleged attempted assassination of former President George Bush while in Kuwait to be worthy of a military response on 27 June 1993. The Iraqi Intelligence Headquarters in Baghdad was targeted by 23 Tomahawk cruise missiles.

By 1996 the regime's grip on power seemed to have significantly strengthened despite its inability to end the UN sanctions against it.

In September 2002 President George W. Bush urged the United Nations to encourage Iraqi President Saddam Hussein to comply with U.N. resolutions or "actions will be unavoidable." Bush said that Saddam has repeatedly violated 16 U.N. Security Council resolutions, which include a call for Iraq to "disarm its chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs". Iraqi officials rejected Bush's assertions.

On 17th of March 2003, President Bush gave Saddam Hussein and his sons 48 hours to leave Iraq, threatening that their refusal to do so will result in military conflict commenced at a time of his choosing. Saddam has rejected President Bush's ultimatum that he and his sons leave Iraq before early Thursday the 20th of March, or face military action.

On Thursday 20th of March 23, 2003 40 satellite-guided Tomahawk cruise missiles fired from U.S. warships in the Red Sea and Persian Gulf. U.S. President George W. Bush announced Wednesday night he had ordered the coalition attack on Iraq.

OOPS: Gleaned from http://arabic-media.com/iraq_history.htm

NYC

03-09-2005, 03:19 PM

So what I am saying is that place has been Fucked up for a very long time.

Bring back the Sumerians!

involved

03-09-2005, 03:35 PM

108th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 89

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

January 7, 2003

Mr. HOLLINGS introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services

A BILL

To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE; TABLE OF CONTENTS.

(a) SHORT TITLE- This Act may be cited as the `Universal National Service Act of 2003'.

(b) TABLE OF CONTENTS- The table of contents for this Act is as follows:

Sec. 1. Short title; table of contents.

Sec. 2. National service obligation.

Sec. 3. Two-year period of national service.

Sec. 4. Implementation by the President.

Sec. 5. Induction.

Sec. 6. Deferments and postponements.

Sec. 7. Induction exemptions.

Sec. 8. Conscientious objection.

Sec. 9. Discharge following national service.

Sec. 10. Registration of females under the Military Selective Service Act.

Sec. 11. Relation of Act to registration and induction authority of Military Selective Service Act.

Sec. 12. Definitions.

SEC. 2. NATIONAL SERVICE OBLIGATION.

(a) OBLIGATION FOR YOUNG PERSONS- It is the obligation of every citizen of the United States, and every other person residing in the United States, who is between the ages of 18 and 26 to perform a period of national service as prescribed in this Act unless exempted under the provisions of this Act.

(b) FORM OF NATIONAL SERVICE- National service under this Act shall be performed either--

(1) as a member of an active or reserve component of the uniformed services; or

(2) in a civilian capacity that, as determined by the President, promotes the national defense, including national or community service and homeland security.

(c) INDUCTION REQUIREMENTS- The President shall provide for the induction of persons covered by subsection (a) to perform national service under this Act.

(d) SELECTION FOR MILITARY SERVICE- Based upon the needs of the uniformed services, the President shall--

(1) determine the number of persons covered by subsection (a) whose service is to be performed as a member of an active or reserve component of the uniformed services; and

(2) select the individuals among those persons who are to be inducted for military service under this Act.

(e) CIVILIAN SERVICE- Persons covered by subsection (a) who are not selected for military service under subsection (d) shall perform their national service obligation under this Act in a civilian capacity pursuant to subsection (b)(2).

SEC. 3. TWO-YEAR PERIOD OF NATIONAL SERVICE.

(a) GENERAL RULE- Except as otherwise provided in this section, the period of national service performed by a person under this Act shall be two years.

(b) GROUNDS FOR EXTENSION- At the discretion of the President, the period of military service for a member of the uniformed services under this Act may be extended--

(1) with the consent of the member, for the purpose of furnishing hospitalization, medical, or surgical care for injury or illness incurred in line of duty; or

(2) for the purpose of requiring the member to compensate for any time lost to training for any cause.

(c) EARLY TERMINATION- The period of national service for a person under this Act shall be terminated before the end of such period under the following circumstances:

(1) The voluntary enlistment and active service of the person in an active or reserve component of the uniformed services for a period of at least two years, in which case the period of basic military training and education actually served by the person shall be counted toward the term of enlistment.

(2) The admission and service of the person as a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, or the United States Merchant Marine Academy.

(3) The enrollment and service of the person in an officer candidate program, if the person has signed an agreement to accept a Reserve commission in the appropriate service with an obligation to serve on active duty if such a commission is offered upon completion of the program.

(4) Such other grounds as the President may establish.

SEC. 4. IMPLEMENTATION BY THE PRESIDENT.

(a) IN GENERAL- The President shall prescribe such regulations as are necessary to carry out this Act.

(b) MATTER TO BE COVERED BY REGULATIONS- Such regulations shall include specification of the following:

(1) The types of civilian service that may be performed for a person's national service obligation under this Act.

(2) Standards for satisfactory performance of civilian service and of penalties for failure to perform civilian service satisfactorily.

(3) The manner in which persons shall be selected for induction under this Act, including the manner in which those selected will be notified of such selection.

(4) All other administrative matters in connection with the induction of persons under this Act and the registration, examination, and classification of such persons.

(5) A means to determine questions or claims with respect to inclusion for, or exemption or deferment from induction under this Act, including questions of conscientious objection.

(6) Standards for compensation and benefits for persons performing their national service obligation under this Act through civilian service.

(7) Such other matters as the President determines necessary to carry out this Act.

(c) USE OF PRIOR ACT- To the extent determined appropriate by the President, the President may use for purposes of this Act the procedures provided in the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 451 et seq.), including procedures for registration, selection, and induction.

SEC. 5. INDUCTION.

(a) IN GENERAL- Every person subject to induction for national service under this Act, except those whose training is deferred or postponed in accordance with this Act, shall be called and inducted by the President for such service at the time and place specified by the President.

(b) AGE LIMITS- A person may be inducted under this Act only if the person has attained the age of 18 and has not attained the age of 26.

(c) VOLUNTARY INDUCTION- A person subject to induction under this Act may volunteer for induction at a time other than the time at which the person is otherwise called for induction.

(d) EXAMINATION; CLASSIFICATION- Every person subject to induction under this Act shall, before induction, be physically and mentally examined and shall be classified as to fitness to perform national service. The President may apply different classification standards for fitness for military service and fitness for civilian service.

SEC. 6. DEFERMENTS AND POSTPONEMENTS.

(a) HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS- A person who is pursuing a standard course of study, on a full-time basis, in a secondary school or similar institution of learning shall be entitled to have induction under this Act postponed until the person--

(1) obtains a high school diploma;

(2) ceases to pursue satisfactorily such course of study; or

(3) attains the age of 20.

(b) HARDSHIP AND DISABILITY- Deferments from national service under this Act may be made for--

(1) extreme hardship; or

(2) physical or mental disability.

(c) TRAINING CAPACITY- The President may postpone or suspend the induction of persons for military service under this Act as necessary to limit the number of persons receiving basic military training and education to the maximum number that can be adequately trained.

(d) TERMINATION- No deferment or postponement of induction under this Act shall continue after the cause of such deferment or postponement ceases.

SEC. 7. INDUCTION EXEMPTIONS.

(a) QUALIFICATIONS- No person may be inducted for military service under this Act unless the person is acceptable to the Secretary concerned for training and meets the same health and physical qualifications applicable under section 505 of title 10, United States Code, to persons seeking original enlistment in a regular component of the Armed Forces.

(b) OTHER MILITARY SERVICE- No person shall be liable for induction under this Act who--

(1) is serving, or has served honorably for at least six months, in any component of the uniformed services on active duty; or

(2) is or becomes a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, the United States Naval Academy, the United States Air Force Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, the United States

Merchant Marine Academy, a midshipman of a Navy accredited State maritime academy, a member of the Senior Reserve Officers' Training Corps, or the naval aviation college program, so long as that person satisfactorily continues in and completes two years training therein.

SEC. 8. CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTION.

(a) CLAIMS AS CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR- Any person selected under this Act for induction into the uniformed services who claims, because of religious training and belief (as defined in section 6(j) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 456(j))), exemption from combatant training included as part of that military service and whose claim is sustained under such procedures as the President may prescribe, shall, when inducted, participate in military service that does not include any combatant training component.

(b) TRANSFER TO CIVILIAN SERVICE- Any such person whose claim is sustained may, at the discretion of the President, be transferred to a national service program for performance of such person's national service obligation under this Act.

SEC. 9. DISCHARGE FOLLOWING NATIONAL SERVICE.

(a) DISCHARGE- Upon completion or termination of the obligation to perform national service under this Act, a person shall be discharged from the uniformed services or from civilian service, as the case may be, and shall not be subject to any further service under this Act.

(b) COORDINATION WITH OTHER AUTHORITIES- Nothing in this section shall limit or prohibit the call to active service in the uniformed services of any person who is a member of a regular or reserve component of the uniformed services.

SEC. 10. REGISTRATION OF FEMALES UNDER THE MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT.

(a) REGISTRATION REQUIRED- Section 3(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. 453(a)) is amended--

(1) by striking `male' both places it appears;

(2) by inserting `or herself' after `himself'; and

(3) by striking `he' and inserting `the person'.

(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 16(a) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 466(a)) is amended by striking `men' and inserting `persons'.

SEC. 11. RELATION OF ACT TO REGISTRATION AND INDUCTION AUTHORITY OF MILITARY SELECTIVE SERVICE ACT.

(a) REGISTRATION- Section 4 of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 454) is amended by inserting after subsection (g) the following new subsection:

`(h) This section does not apply with respect to the induction of persons into the Armed Forces pursuant to the Universal National Service Act of 2003.'.

(b) INDUCTION- Section 17(c) of the Military Selective Service Act (50 U.S.C. App. 467(c)) is amended by striking `now or hereafter' and all that follows through the period at the end and inserting `inducted pursuant to the Universal National Service Act of 2003.'.

SEC. 12. DEFINITIONS.

In this Act:

(1) The term `military service' means service performed as a member of an active or reserve component of the uniformed services.

(2) The term `Secretary concerned' means the Secretary of Defense with respect to the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marine Corps, the Secretary of Homeland Security with respect to the Coast Guard, the Secretary of Commerce, with respect to matters concerning the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and the Secretary of Health and Human Services, with respect to matters concerning the Public Health Service.

(3) The term `United States', when used in a geographical sense, means the several States, the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Guam.

(4) The term `uniformed services' means the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, commissioned corps of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and commissioned corps of the Public Health Service.
It seems Canada signed an agreement Not to allow draft doggers,I didn't know.I didn't know about this bill either....? Anyone hear of this ?
http://www.hslda.org/docs/link.asp?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fthomas%2Eloc%2Egov%2Fcgi %2Dbin%2Fbdquery%2Fz%3Fd108%3ASN00089%3A%40%40%40L %26summ2%3Dm%26

NYC

03-09-2005, 04:03 PM

I never saw that, Involved - Latest Major Action: 1/7/2003 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services.

Interesting

H.R.163 Latest Major Action: 10/5/2004 Failed of passage/not agreed to in House. Status: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Failed by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 2 - 402 (Roll no. 494).

NYC

03-09-2005, 04:06 PM

Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B.[NY-15]

COSPONSORS(14), ALPHABETICAL:
Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/7/2003
Rep Brown, Corrine [FL-3] - 1/28/2003
Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 5/19/2004
Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/28/2003
Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/7/2003
Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 1/28/2003
Rep Hastings, Alcee L. [FL-23] - 1/28/2003
Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 7/21/2004
Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/28/2003
Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/7/2003
Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/7/2003
Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/28/2003
Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/7/2003
Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] - 1/28/2003
Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [DC] - 1/28/2003(withdrawn - 6/21/2004)

Strike4ce

03-09-2005, 04:13 PM

Iraq Year in Review 2004 facts.

http://www.defendamerica.mil/downloads/MNFI-Year-in-Review_2004-Fact-Sheets.pdf

Criminal Minded

03-09-2005, 05:14 PM

OK Simon666 Saddam was a saint!!! He was the pope acting as a murderous camel eater!! End of story!!!

Bman

09-22-2006, 01:01 AM

Bman

09-22-2006, 01:13 AM

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Yeah... the only problem is, its called "the Iranian Intelligence Service"

:add09: :add09: